How Long do you hold your stop sign?
 

I know everyone has been talking about T's recently but I saw this in a boys V game and was woundering if the stop sign was held too long.

Coach becomes upset that the ref is not counting 5 seconds quick enough. He stops his feet and shouts 5 seconds a few times. a few seconds later another closley gaurded count is started by the ref, but not quick enough for the coach. He does the same thing. This time he gets the stop sign, only to have all 3 of his coaches on the bench do the same thing at the stop sign. The stop sign must have been held up for a good 7 - 8 seconds or so and the coach was not slowing down. Luckly for the coach the other team scored. My question is would you have held the stop sign that long, and more generally how long will you hold the stop sign, or allow a coach to go on after a stop sign.

Fonzzy, I think my friend TomeGun will be stopping by this thread. :eek:

I'm never in such a hurry to call a T that I'll take away a scoring situation for the opponent. I'll wait for the basket (or miss) and then call the T. I give the stop sign until one of two things happens: coach stops, or coach makes it clear he won't stop.

Whacko!!

The only question I'd put to myself is whether to give out one general-purpose bench technical or give each assistant a technical foul along with 3 indirect "T"s and a "buh-bye" to the head coach.

Decisions, decisions.....

You don't let assistant coaches tag-team you like that. Ever.

Amen to that! Oh, and if he's got three assistants, I guess the whole "Batman and Robin" analogy is out. So what is it? Batman, Robin, and the Wonder Twins?

Larry, Shemp and Moe....and Curley Joe.

Sorry but BadNewsRef this means nothing to me please explain.

Oh yes, the almighty stop sign! :rolleyes:

I'm just speechless. It reminds me of the robotic team I saw tonight. I don't know what else to say...it is just robotic.

Anybody ever notice how a lot of talk about the stop sign goes something like this:

"I gave the coach the stop sign and he kept on so I gave him a T."

"My partner gave the coach a stop sign and a minute later the coach went crazy so my partner gave him his first T, then I gave him his second T a minute later."

Kind of amazing how that robotic bull dookie doesn't do jack squat and the coach ends up getting a T anyway!

I guess I do have something to say about it. :D

The point he is trying to make (and is joking about), some of us feel that you should not use this signal at all. I am one of those people that do not believe in that signal for the most part. I feel you should be able to convey the same thing with a quick word and no one knows you did it. Then when nothing happens, no one even realizes there was a problem. Now that is me, I do not need public displays to tell a coach to knock it off.

Peace

I would only have to hold my stop sign for 1.35 seconds.

It is pretty powerful! :D

I vote for Huey, Dewey & Louie....and uncle Donald, of course.. :D

That is why I would have held the stop sign for ZERO seconds.

I've used the stop sign only one time on a coach.

Wanna know what happened? I had to give him a Tech 5 seconds later. (it might not even have been 5 seconds)

My stop signs are verbal. "Coach, that's enough", "Coach, I hear you", "Coach, that play has nothing to do with the last play".

My take on stop signs......

They're fine for <b>some</b> situations, not <b>all</b> situations. However, if used they are a <b>final</b> warning. Someone had better cease and desist immediately or the "T" should be given, also immediately. You sureasheck don't hold one for 7-8 seconds while a coach continues to jabber at you. You also sureasheck don't use it multi times on the same person. That's just repeating your warning while not doing anything about it. A stop sign is just the non-verbal way to say "that's enough"-- and mean it.

In other situations, an immediate "T" might be necessary with no warning, stop sign, etc involved. That depends on the circumstances and the individual tolerance level of the official(sometimes- other times are no-brainers). It certainly is never a given that a stop sign or <b>any</b> warning <b>must</b> precede a technical foul.

Jmo, while acknowledging that there are different ways to control a game. However, if you aren't following up immediately on your stop-signs, you ain't controlling the game-also imo.

You've timed your whistle?

Thank you for posting this.

Huh?

I only have to hold my stop sign for 1.15 seconds, not my whistle. Notice my stop sign time decreased since last night. I worked on it after I posted and decreased how long I have to hold it. Stayed up til 2am working on that darn thing.

Oh, one more thing




:D

In this scenario, I'm not sure they would get the luxury of a stop sign. You have one coach stomping and others chiming in. A nice T on the bench would be in order here to me. I'll post about my T last night here in a bit.:D

The Stop sign is avisual communication tool.

It should be held as long as needed to get the point across to the Coach.

Look for a positve reaction from the Caoch that the message is recieved and acknowledged.

Agreed. And for those who might be concerned about depriving the other team of a chance to score when you call a "T": remember, that team now gets two free throws AND the ball back. This concern seems to misprioritize game play over game management, at least in some cases.

We were actually discussing this situation at a game last night. One of our senior officials who also works the college game reminded us that no matter how bad he is behaving, if you are going to T a coach, always wait until his team has the ball. It just adds a little more insult to the situation. I had never really thought about it, but that is a good idea.

This doesn't apply here since it sounds like one team was running an offense, but remember if you have a fast break situation with an unsporting T, you hold you whistle until after the score. I booted this one earlier in my career. I just thought I'd throw that one out there.

Can't figure out what additional insult this brings, under ncaa he gets the ball back anyway after the free throws. Also injects a bit of "this is personal" into a process that should be "all business". FWIW.

If you need to T a coach just go ahead and T him.

The NCHSSA director made it very clear this year, that officials are not to tolorate assistant coaches in any way, shape, or form. He let it be known that "assistants" are to sit on there "***" and be quiet. He stated that the assistants are bench personnel treated exactly like the players that are sitting on the bench. The head coach is 100% responsible for the actions of bench personnel. If the bench (players or coaches) can not behave, then the head coach shall pay for it with a loss of his coaching box.

So in the situation mentioned in this thread, if an assistant coach was making any "noise" toward an official, he should be asessed the T as soon as possible. The stop sign is always a good warning for a head coach. An assistant does not deserve that same privilage.

This was High School situation, so 2 shots and the ball to the other team. Threrefore you have taken the ball from the offending team, given the other team 2 shots and the ball. There is nothing "personal" about it. Just hold you whistle until his team has possesion. If he is angry enough to deserve a T, then the couple of extra seconds that you hold your whistle will not make any difference, and it may show that you gave him a little longer to calm himself down even though you have already made up your mind to give him the T.

You mentioned he's a college official so I assumed he does this for his ncaa games. Or maybe you think his status as a college official gives him more credibility?

In any event it's very bad advice IMO. You start doing this stuff and next thing you'll be making calls/no-calls based on how much you like the coach.

When it's time to T the coach just go ahead and T him. Throw all that other clever BS out the window.

I only mentioned that he is a college official because he is very respected in our association. He has worked numerous NCAA tournament games, and a couple of Final Fours. The advice was based on High School situation. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a coach, it is just a matter of holding the whistle for a few extra seconds.

I am the last person to go passing out technical fouls, so if I administer one, it is well warranted. So if a coach is behaving that badly, holiding the whistle for another second or two until his team has possesion is just causing him to "loose" as much as he can for his actions. Remember we are talking about a situation where he is going to get T'd up. Not a situation where you are looking for a problem.

We are on the floor for the players, not the coaches. I rarely pay them any attention at all unless there is a dead ball situation and they are asking a question or requesting a time out. Therefore if he is behaving bad enough for me to give him a T, another second or two will not hurt a bit.

OK, so what you're really saying is when a coach gets on your azz IF the other team has the ball and IF you think they are about to turn it over then hold the T. Otherwise T right away. Right?

Interesting policy. What happens if the coach is reaming you a new one while you're waiting for the other team to turn it over but they don't? Or what if the OTHER coach calls a time out?? Then what? You wait for the TO to end and start all over? How long do you wait until you finally give up and T him up when he doesn't have the ball?

To me life is complicated enough already. Coach earns his T, he gets his T right then & there.

Frankly, I don't care if your friend worked EVERY D1 final for the last 20 years. What you heard him say is bad advice. That's all.

Agreed. Just penalize the act and forget about the analysis.

Stop Signs ...
 

In our area STOP signs are encouraged and expected to be used. Having said that the philosophy I have embraced is right along the lines of Jurassic Ref.
Several nights ago coach comes screaming off the bench yelling at me. She was on the court a good 5 feet, going Linda Blair on me. NO stop sign just a tweet from me.
LAst night coach crying about everything. I use a the step process
1. I hear you coach
2. I'm looking for it
3. STOP sign and "that's enough coach"
4. Would have been a T but he stopped and we had a nice little 2nd half.
I have no problem when the coach goes Linda Blair-Tweet- What I am working on is dealing with the persistent whining/crying/reffing deal.....

I think that you are reading too much into the statement. You should know by the individual situation if this is possible. It is like anything else in this game. It will not be definate each and every time, but it is just something to think about. Like I said before, it is just a matter of holding the whistle for a COUPLE of seconds longer if there is a chance that the other team may score. If they are in a set offense, with no attacking of the basket happening, then give him the T. But don't take a scoring oppertunity away from the other team just because of a coach's behavior. You have obviously been able to tolorate him up to this point, a few more seconds will not hurt.

Everything we do in basketball is based on management of the game. Each game is different, therefore you learn to use your game management skills based on the contest that you are working that night. The next game could be totally different and require a different set of management skills. There are very few absolutes. The best officials are the ones that can adapt to situations on the floor as they arise.

It has been my experience that pickinig the mind of D1 officials is a great place to learn, but you also have to consider that most of us are not D1 officials and cannot manage the games the same way. Since he has worked the final four and the tournament there is probably a level of credibility and respect from the coaches that we will probably not have with a HS coach or smaller college coach. Another thing to consider is that basketball at the college level, especially D1 is much more of a profession than high school. The coaches generally have a much better understanding of what the officials are trying to do on the floor and thus the game can be called a little differently.

Being vindicitive can hardly be called "game management" skills imo. And I can't believe that the "best officials" would even consider doing something so petty.

Could be.

Could also be that your original statement is overly simplistic and open to any interpretation. Too much analysis to go thru.

Here's a foolproof plan that I bet even your D1 friend uses:

Coach earns a T ---> coach gets his T.

No steps in the middle.

Jmo, but if you pulled something like that at the D1 level, you'd be pulled yourself shortly thereafter. I just can't see supervisors putting up with a "gonna get you back" philosophy at that level. You'd lose any credibility and respect that you had from the coaches.

Or even working a D3 game featuring the nationally ranked #467 and #389 teams.

Where did being vindictive come from. You have really gone off of the deep end now.

"...no matter how bad he is behaving, if you are going to T a coach, always wait until his team has the ball. It just adds a little more insult to the situation. I had never really thought about it, but that is a good idea."

Not vindictive?

NO IT IS NOT !

Interestingly enough, when a player commits a foul I blow my whistle because of the foul, not game management.

Too many officials want to jump right over learning judgement and other things associated with calling the game. Going right to game management is not the answer IMO. If I am over simplifying your statement, please explain.

Two thoughts...
1)"adding insult to the situation" is not something we need to be doing. No matter what the coaches do or say, we MUST be professional at all times (or at least try to be). So as Dan and JR have said - if he/she earns it, give it. Don't wait...

2)The Stop sign is a very "public" thing...everyone in the gym sees it. It might work if the coach is smart and able to control his/her emotions...it might backfire because the emotional coach will consider it as you "showing him/her up" and then really go bonkers on you...either way, once you have done something that visible and public, you have painted yourself into a corner - now the next outburst must be T'd or you lose credibility with both benches..."He gave the big stop sign, but didn't T them?? What can I get away with??"

I have found that a calm, verbal warning to the coach is much better...nobody hears it but the ones it is directed to and it doesn't become a public thing...if the other coach says something about his opponents behavior, a simple "It's been addressed, coach" is all that is needed...still leaves you with options for later in the game. JMHO, for whatever it's worth...

tomegun, I was not referring to calling common fouls or violations. Just to handling "situations" that will arise from game to game. Calling the foul, or violation is the one thing that should be constant. You are correct by stating that you blow your whistle because of the foul. I do think that you can teach people good mechanics, and give them all of the tools to learning good judgement(although some still don't use it) but game management is a skill that one is actually a little harder to aquire.

I think that this topic has gotten away from the way that I referee. I am not vindictive, and as I have said before, If I give a coach a T, then he has really gone over the line. Easpecially in a varsity game where "most" (not all) of the coaches are fairly knowledgeable about the game. I always figure that if they are complaining about something, then we need to listen first and then once our answer is not good enough for them, then you can give the T. Good communication with coaches is the key. They need to feel that you are willing to listen to them even if you know that what they are saying is either false, or just begging. It is often the "space" that officials put between themselves and the coach that can cause a problem. At the same time, we are there to referee the game and the players on the floor, and it is the coaches job to coach the players, not scream or beg to officials.

[QUOTE=rockyroad]
2)The Stop sign is a very "public" thing...everyone in the gym sees it. It might work if the coach is smart and able to control his/her emotions...it might backfire because the emotional coach will consider it as you "showing him/her up" and then really go bonkers on you...either way, once you have done something that visible and public, you have painted yourself into a corner - now the next outburst must be T'd or you lose credibility with both benches..."He gave the big stop sign, but didn't T them?? What can I get away with??"

I don't agree. By being public the coach has painted himself into a corner. If the coach is at the point of a stop sign with me he has been persistently a pain in the a$$ and I probably have cut him too much slack already. He has undoubtly earned his Technical foul....I also work the sub varsity circuit where coaches come and go. My experience is 50% have no clue on how to deal with officials. Maybe I'll change my philosophy if and when I start doing varsity level.

Rocky,

Around here, the stop sign is used to communicate with your partners as well as the caoch. The logic is that a coach does not need a warning from each uninformed official. When I see my partners stop sign, it carries the same weight as if I had given it. Your partners probably won't see your calm verbal warning. Then, when they get near the coach, they may feel obligated to give their calm verbal warning. The public display eliminates this redundancy.

Mulk

Personally when I do give the stop sign, I make sure it is seen. I won't say I never try to talk to coaches when they're irate, but if I warn a coach I want it known. Then when you to take care of business everyone knew it was coming. You just have to make sure to take care of business after the warning is given.

OK, if this isn't what you mean I will give you a second chance to take it back. I don't know can say everything and then not mean everything.

Now I'm starting to see why I don't have to use my .963 second - I worked on it at lunch - stop sign as often as others. :D

You can talk to your partners about your warning. Also there is not a guarantee that your partners saw your stop sign.

Peace

If I give a warning to the coach, my partners will know - I will let them know...and I agree with the logic about not needing a warning from each official. But I think you missed my point - the stop sign is a public display and - agree or not- many coaches take that as you "showing them up"...a calm "Coach, that's enough. This is your official warning" works much better than a stop sign and is much better communication...

I completely agree.

Peace

Rocky,

I like what you are saying. But how do you "let your partners know"? Is there some private less insulting signal that you use among the officials? Do you tell them at the next dead ball? Halftime? Did the coach ever do something before you got around to letting them know? Do you ever wish you had already told them about your calm warning as the coach is jawing at your partner a few seconds later?

I'm not disagreeing - just trying to understand how you are communicating this while the game is going on?

Rut,

Which goes back to the original question - how long do you hold your stop sign. Long enough for my partners to see it. Which, is why we give it around here? I'm not going to worry too much about hurting a bickering coach's feelings.

Anyway, how do you let your partners know?

I did not say you cared about whether you hurt the feelings of a coach. But if you "show them up" you might have made a minor situation into a big fire. Now something that could have been solved with a quite word not put you in a no-win situation where no matter what you do it will likely be wrong. As Tomegun has said, many times it does not prevent anything when you give that signal. You end up giving a T anyway if you just read these stories about the "stop sign."

How do you let your partner know anything? You go up to them and tell them. You wait for a dead ball and you tell them. Timeouts, FT situations, an extended delay, walking buy a partner after a foul you tell them. You do talk to your partners during the game about other things don't you?

Peace

Yeah, there is nothing like talking to your partners to let them know something. It amazes me how so many people preach about communication and then can't automatically realize that talking to your partners is a form of communication. Another reason why I don't like the stop sign; like other things, it is a substitute for that good old-fashioned voice.

Yup. :D

Peace

You have to be next to a coach to calmly give him his warning don't you? If you are next to the coach and your partners aren't, how do you talk to your partners? I can't automatically understand how you can use your good old-fashioned voice across the floor and not show the coach up. If you do it at an appropriate or later non-insulting time, has it ever been too late?

I will use my voice to communicate with my partners the same way I tell them about timeouts, about problem players, about the bonus situation and other things.

"Hey Ronny, we are in the bonus on this end."
"Hey Ronny, we need to watch red 23 and white 4."
"Hey Ronny, the coach has been warned."
"Hey Ronny, I have the clock."

If it is too late, would the stop sign have worked? There is nothing to guarnatee it.

It's a matter of human relations. What works for one official, might not work for another official. What works for one official with a particular coach, might not work for that same official with a differant coach on a differant night.

How long do I hold the stop sign? Depends: I am still holding up the stop sign for that coach LAST week. I think he is still complaining. LOL.

Remember good mechanics when using the stop sign. Make sure to keep your hand a a 90 degree angle with the floor. Push your arm straight out towards the coach. You don't want to look like your giving the "Heil Hitler" signal. LOL.

As a user of the stop sign, although late on this quote (page1) its absolutely right. Every official has a different tolerance level of coaches. The spectrum goes from too lenient to too much of a hard azz and everywhere in between. I would like to think that I am somewhere in the middle maybe leaning towards leniency, since I used to belong to the dark side (coaching). So, if a coach is expressing frustration, without crossing the line, I will try and communicate with him(her). If the coach doesn't like or react well to my answer, the stop sign is coming out. That's it. Next time the coach acts up...WHACK! But if I just whack a coach after trying to communicate to him(her) what I saw or called it could appear on tape that I went over there to pick a fight. I certainly don't want to get THAT reputation as my assignments will start to dry up.

As another veteran official I respect once said....

STOP
LOCK & LOAD (whistle in your mouth)
FIRE (WHACK)

That's very effective usually if red 23 and white 4 can hear you also. Or if you've made sure that they can hear you....

AKA a verbal stop sign.:D

Where on the survey is the: "Sometimes" option?

I have a buddy who gives verbal warnings that the entire gym can hear. He'll turn to his partners and loudly say "Blue coach has been warned".

OTOH, some official's coordinators / assigners want the stop sign so that it shows up on the tape. I've used the stop sign, and I've not used the stop sign, according to what felt right during any particular situation.

I agree with this. Now if someone who is into numbers and human interaction can come up with the percentages, we can determine how often the stop sign should be used versus talking to a coach.

I agree that film can make an official look bad when giving a technical foul. For this reason, I often suggest keeping a distance from a coach who is exhibiting behavior that could earn a T. If I'm close to a coach, they will more than likely not get a T. When they are doing something to earn a T, I would like to think it is obvious to everyone in the facility.

My public disdain for the stop sign does not include the example above. I just don't like the robotic use of the stop sign like it is number 2 in a procedure that must be followed every time.

I used a stop sign...well sorta
 

I gave a modified stop sign last night.

Assistants from home team kept commenting/questioning (while seated of course) about calls/non-calls early in the game. But the comments weren't necessarily directed at either me or my partner. Just more or less trying to draw attention. However, about midway through the 1st quarter I was trail directly in front of the bench and all of sudden I hear a bunch of mostly unintelligible jibberish behind me.

Without directing my eyes in their direction, I slightly turned my outside shoulder towards them and put my arm out at a 45degree angle from my side and pushed my palm towards the ground. I don't know how long I held my stop sign, but I was laughing to myself and thinking about the forum when I did it. :p

I think the ASSistants got the hint b/c I didn't hear anything from them the rest of the game. :D

has anyone considered using a yield sign or even a pedestrian crossing sign? these could be effective ways of communicating that you have had enough