a rant on game management priorities
 

Forgive me for the rant, but I need to vent to people who will understand. Or maybe you guys can tell me Im nuts :D

Freshmen boys game- Everything going well in first half. We had to tell players to keep their shirts tucked in several times, no big deal.

At halftime, my partner complains to me, saying he never seen a game where the players just wouldn't keep their shirts in. I laugh, and he says, "Whats the rule on that? Can we call a technical?"

I explain that there is nothing to my knowledge allowing a T for that, and only real recourse is to tell them to tuck em in, and as last resort can send a player out of the game (I think).

So, he tells coaches at beginning of half time to ask the players to keep on it, so we wont have to. I have no problem with that.

Later in 3rd quarter, there was a loose ball and some contact, nothing that I would judge a foul, and no call by either of us. Player on visiting team goes down, holding face. When possession is secured, we whistle for possible injury.

Visiting coach is complaining that there should have been a foul called. I can take this, although I disagree, but then ASSISTANT coach starts running his mouth. He has already made a couple comments on the previous trip down the court. I tell head coach that his bench needs to leave the officiating to the officials, and that I didn't want to hear anything else from the assistant.

When I had a chance, I tell partner that V bench/assistant has been warned about addressing/complaining to the officials and that I wasn't going to keep listening to it. He says he doesn't think we should call a T for this, and it would only be like adding salt to the wound (visitors were down by 20)

How's that? This from the guy who wanted to call a T for a shirt being untucked??? :eek:

You are correct. You can direct them to leave the game. However, the technical would fall on the coach for delay of game if the coach fail to sub a player for the one you directed to leave.

IMO, I think you were correct. Warning an assistant is just a way to tell him to shut up. Wanting to whack a kid for having his shirt out sounds like someone read a new rule this week and didn't understand the whole thing.

My warning for shirts not tucked in comes in pregame. I will give a courtesy warning during a FT - "Check your shirts guys". If someone gives me any kind of an attitude or refuses to tuck them in neatly, I ask them to follow me and send them out. If you take care of it early - 1st qtr - you won't have to worry about it any more during the game. I am a jerk about this issue. (If there's a circumstance that's odd, I take that into consideration - i.e. older uni's that have short tails, etc.)

About the assistant coach - I do not talk to assistant coaches - period. I sit them down immediately when they stand up for any reason (other than to spontaneously cheer for a play) and if they address me, that's my reply - I don't talk to assistants. If they get pi$$y, I let the coach know they need to control them or I will. ;)

You know what amazes me? NBA players automatically tuck their shirts in. High school players still have to be told.

I agree with both you *and* your partner.

As you posted, he merely asked what the rule was on dealing with the shirts -- you didn't say he wanted to call a T. I read it as he wanted to deal with the issue, and he's right.

And, you're right to deal with the assistant coach, but he's right that it could be rubbing salt in the wound to call a T and that there might be better ways to deal with it (sepending on the specific actions of the assistant coach).

If I hear an assistant coach in my direction, I just ask the head coach, "Would you like to keep him quiet or would you like me to?"

I would not use this line, as it sounds like a threat. IMO, sarcasm and threats do not serve us well in the long run. I just tell the head coach, "Coach, please keep your bench under control."

So saying "I don't listen to Robin, only Batman" would be bad then. :D

Sounds like you handled everything well.

Actually, I did say he wanted to call a T. I said, "this from the guy who wanted to call a T." He asked me if we can call a T for this, and I said no. He then pulled out the rule book to make sure there wasn't anything allowing such a call. He was annoyed that we kept reminding them to check their shirts, and was searching for a rule to give out a T the next go around.

I agreed that it needed to be addressed, and thats why something was said to coaches at the beginning of the 2nd half.

I also agree that a T for bench behavior isn't our primary tool, but once the head coach has been warned, I don't see what the next step is if the behavior continues. In this instance, coach got the message with my warning. I didn't hear another thing from the bench.

But it seems to me that if it continued, the next step would have been a technical foul. I'm not going to make continued warnings and lose my credibility on the court.

Thanks to all for the responses, and letting me vent.

Ditto that, and very well said.

I will, however, give a player a technical foul for shirt tail not tucked, after several warnings of course. Real example: Girls 10th grade game. I'm administrating the FT and I tell player to tuck in. Won't do it. I repeat, same response. I send player to bench. Coach asks why and I said, she won't tuck in her shirt. Okay, next dead whistle, coach sends her back. I warn her again. Still won't do it. BLAM! Technical foul, unsportsmanlike conduct. I'm not going to keep sending them to the bench. I'm putting the owness on the players too. They too are responsible for there actions.

Just like, I'm not going to address an assistance coach thru the head coach. If the assistance is out of line in IMO, I will deal directly with him/her. Real example: Late in the game this weekend, my partner called a foul on one of the key players on the team. Assistance coach stomps his feet to the floor which I clearly heard and jumps up off the bench in disgust of the foul call. I called a Direct Technical to the assistance coach, indirect to the head coach, coach must now remain seated. I'm not going to the head coach and giving him a warning about inappropriate behavior from an assistance, or that the AC must remain seated at all times or should not talk to me. Not going there.

Hey Old Fool - I think you need some "assistance" with your spelling.

Try "I don't listen to Nicole, only Paris". :D

Or better yet - "I don't listen to Bill, only Hillary". :eek:

Especially for all new or inexperience officials, please ignore this idiotic statement. There is absolutley, positively no basis for this whatsoever! :mad:

Old School, you maybe the biggest http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/censored.gif to ever post on this board.

If you ever do work your way up to a high school JV game in the future and you make that call, you will very quickly be on your way back down to the rec leagues from whence you came. :rolleyes:

OMG!! I don't think I have ever laughed out loud on this site like I just did!! I swear that will be my next new line!! I cannot thank you enough - HILARIOUS!:D

As far as oldschool "whacking" a player for an untucked shirt - there's no way you can justify that with rule. No way - period.

I believe that the league fines them if this is observed on the video when the league reviews each game. Hitting them in the pocketbook gets compliance darn quick.

JR:

That is a great observation. And it is one that I tell the captains before the start of a H.S. game. I would like to know if NBA and WNBA players are fined for not wearing their uniforms correctly.

MTD, Sr.

I believe that they are fined in the NBA, Mark, as Nevada said. Iirc, the fine is so minimal though that it's barely pocket change to the player. I also read somewhere- also iirc in one of Charles Barkley's books, that players don't really worry that much about fines because they're tax deductible.

Onus

o·nus /ˈoʊnəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[oh-nuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural o·nus·es. 1. a difficult or disagreeable obligation, task, burden, etc.
2. burden of proof. Compare onus probandi.
3. blame or responsibility.

And you the most arrogant, however, I have no problem giving a player a technical for not tucking in there shirt, after several warning of course. And you know what, after I do this, people start taking me real serious in my games, and players start tucking in there shirts. The technical is Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Rule 10.3.7: This includes "BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO".....

Deal with it, master http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/censored.gif

My point is this. Where does it end. The rule committee says this is a point of emphasis. So I give the players and the coach multiple warnings, send the players to the bench, but some players just refuse to obey this rule. I actually see them pull the shirt up, so that it's not tucked in. You have to take a side here. Either you are going to enforce it or you're going to let the players marginally get away with it. I personally am sick of telling players to tuck there shirts in. I'm sick of it at all levels. So now, I go technical foul and then there's no problems afterwards.

I'll leave the minor spelling and typo details to the little guys (and gals). This one is big enough for Ms. Annoying Grammar Gal of the Day to address.

The definition of the word "whence" includes the concept of flow, either directional or temporal. Thus using the word "from" is superfluous.

The phrase should read, "... you will very quickly be on your way back down to the rec leagues whence you came. rolleyes."

There will be a test at the end of the thread.

OS, I think you're grabbing the wrong end of the stick here. The rules committee does think it's important, but they also specifically say not to give a T for this (see website). Most high school players are negligent, not defiant about shirts. The shirts come out, and they ignore it. It's not a matter of letting them "get away" with something.

If you are working a game where the same player keeps travelling in the same way again and again, are you going to give her a T because she's trying to get away with something? No, but that doesn't mean you're being "soft". You can just keep calling the travel again and again, and hope she learns her lesson that way.

Shut up.<i></i>

You're welcome.

Why are you giving players several warnings? Tell them a couple of times at most and then start sending them to the bench. If they want to play, they'll tuck them in. I had a varsity kid right before break get told twice to tuck it in. Late in the 1st quarter, he tried to check in with the back hanging out. I sent him back and told the coach we had talked to him too many times already. Coach chewed on him for a full minute and we didn't have a problem again. As far as the assistant, I can see why you wouldn't want to ding him in a 20 point blow out. I have no problem with you telling the HC to get control of his bench. I use this one quite often. I would not ignore an assistant popping off at any level. It should not be happening.

Totally disagree, players are pulling the jersey out, not tucking in the back. It's really taking a lot more effort to keep them in line than I care to put out. Sending them to the bench, calling delay on coaches, just a bunch of beating around the bush to me.

I'm looking for this on the website. Haven't found it yet.

This is dumb. Traveling is a violation, jerseys constantly untucked is an unsporting act IMO.

Well, okay, in the games you're doing perhaps the players are pulling them out. I see that a lot with 8th grade boys especially. My games, I don't see much of it. Maybe it's a local thing. Jerseys untucked isnot a violation, true, but it's also not an unsporting act in anyone 's opinion except yours. I'm sticking to the rules and guldelines laid down for me by my own state interpreter in accordance with the NFHS. I hope you're conforming to your assignor, too.

Actually, I have never given a player a technical for this, but I would if they push me to it. Last year in college men's game, I started sending players to the bench, and the coach got mad at me, said I couldn't do it. This started a heated exchange between us and I almost whacked him for it. Since he was not in support of what I was trying to do, and his players kept doing it. This whole process of sending them to the bench became a cirrus, imo. Interrupting the game to send a player to the bench. Warning the coach for not having a sub ready in a timely fashion and you know the coach took his time about getting a replacement sub. I just think it's a lot of extra work for us to enforce the way the book wants us too.

Now, if I see a player pull his jersey up (10.3.7-h), just enough so it is marginally tucked in, after repeated warnings, he/she getting it from me. I guarantee once I send one technical, problem is solved, coaches and players.

Which part Deecee? For the most part, no, I'm not but I like to kid around with some of the posters here. It's kind of fun debating these topics and watching these guys riggle and squirm.

That would be "wriggle and squirm"...and I triple-dog-dare you to call a T for that in a sanctioned Men's NCAA game (intramurals don't count)...we'll see how long your assignor keeps you on his roster once you start making up your own rules...

S/he already admitted that she never has actually called it. It seems that her bark is worse than her bit. At least, I know I'm not wriggling. How about you wrocky wroad? Are you all a-squirm?

The only thing in this thread that made me "riggle" or "skwirm" at all was the part about using the "Batman and Robin" line on a coach. Tried that once...didn't go over very well.

Actually had a college men's game this past weekend and I gave coaches and players warning in pregame. This worked to perfection, I mean absolutely no problems with this and I think the game was played that much better because of it. Got a lot of accolades after the game for job well done.

As I indicated before, I am not afraid to be an official. I don't worry about nothing but calling the game and if I feel something deserves a technical, I have no problems or fear calling it. If I mess it up, it won't be the first time, and it won't be the last either because I accept the fact that I am not perfect, therefore, I don't sweat it. Like I said, it is more important to be consistent then it is to be good.

WOW!! Three errors in one post by Juulie? Amazing.

1. There should be a space between is and not.
2. There should not be a space between the e and the apostrophe.
3. g-u-i-d-e-l-i-n-e-s

:D

And one more for good measure.

b-i-t-e

Now, that is truly funny.:D

Can you imagine sending <b>multi players</b> to the <b>bench</b> in a college game?

:D <i></i>

So, which is it? And exactly what is your purpose here? Do you not have anything better to do than "play" referee?

Please do not waste our time anymore with your lies, mistruths, half-truths, etc... Some of us are actually here to learn and improve our game. You are not contributing to that at al...

Again with the misspelling. The word is spelled "intramural."
Oh, I don't know about this. I would think it would be better to be at least occasionally right (or good) than consistently bad and wrong. It's even worse to be consistently purposefully ignorant of the rules. But, if what you're doing is getting you more rec league and intramural games, good for you.

Okay, you got me on that one, I didn't actually give her a technical, I just made her go sit back down, but I was very close too.

JR, after giving several warnings, what would you do? Ignore it? I think that's kind of my point. It's ridiculous to keep giving them warning and making them sit down, imo. Sure, during play the jersey can come out on it's own, but these guys where getting beat, they where giving me a hard time, so I made them put there shirt tails in.

I'll give you this, OS, you are consistent.:rolleyes:

That's one of the definitions of "troll." Please stop.