10 seconds
 

Tonight, I had a boys high school varsity. The team was on the free throw line. I began to start my count to 10. I get to five, no shot. I get to 8, no shot. I get to 10 and still no shot. TWEET!! 10 seconds on the free throw line. The gym goes crazy and the teams head coach wants a explaination. Told him that the thrower has 10 seconds to shoot the ball. He requests a time out to look up the rule. There it was. He shuts up and doesn't say another word the rest of the game. My question, has anybody ever had a 10 second call on the free throw?

Please explain this more.

to protest the ruling to see if there were such a rule

I've not personally called one (but not surprising because I only have 9 games under my belt).

My daughter was called for a 10 second violation last year. She has a very long free throw routine and typically shoots just before the 10 seconds are up (actually, more than one official has given her a gift with a very slooooow count, she probably should be called for the violation more than she has).

Had it once, 4 years ago.

First of two...I get to 11 and he shoots...wait a minute, did I miss something...something FT, I get to 11, I figure that's long enough...TWEET!....Coach, "I told ya somebody was gonna call it on you!" :)

Haven't seen it since.

There's no such animal as a "protest" under NFHS rules.

Did you really let a coach pull a rule book out on you?

I have never called one but I have told players to speed it up after their first free throw was taking too long.

Here in Canada (New Brunswick), most of the games I officiate use FIBA rules which only give 5 seconds to shoot a free throw. You would think there would be more violations called, but I have only seen it 2 or 3 times in the past 6 years. Most officials will give the player a gentle reminder that they only have 5 seconds before their next attempt.

I was working a National Championship last summer when a fellow official called a violation (5 seconds) on a free throw shooter. After the game, our supervisor walks into the dressing room laughing and says: "That's the first time I have seen that call in 30 years".

I've never called it (in 25 years of games), nor have I been in a game where it was called.

If someone is tooooooo slooooowwww, I step up and tell them to shoot quicker.

However, I could envision the situation where it might be necessary to call. Just pretty rare.

i witnessed it called one time. It was probably more like 12 seconds.

I have never called it. For some reason my count seems to slow down when I get around six...:)

Coach can do what he wants during a timeout; but I'm not standing there with him while he looks it up, and I'm not helping him find it. That said, I might congratulate him after the game for even having a rule book.

Was Adrian Dantley ever called for it?

Only because i knew it was there:)

There are no protests. 5-4-2

When a coach questions a rule, I tell him that I have a rule book in my bag and we can look it up. If I'm wrong, I'll change the call and give him $100 but if he's wrong, he has to wash my car. I've never had a coach take the bet. :)

My rules meeting this year in the state i live in allows protests if they are reasonable

What state?

And who defines reasonable? And is the meaning of "protest" stop the game and look up the rule? Who looks it up? Ho wmuch time can be taken? What happens if the coach reads the rule one way and the official another?

That's got to be an SEC state.

No, no no, no.....

The proper statement is "That's got to be a......wait for it......SEC state". :D

Oops. . .poor mechanics on my part. It's been a while since I pulled that one out of the bag!

Actually, the state of Missouri has a protest of this nature in soccer.:eek:

The coach must notify the referee before play is restarted that he is protesting that the rules of the game are not being followed or applied properly and then has ten minutes to produce a rules book and prove his case.



Don't shoot the messenger! ;)

[QUOTE=Nevadaref]Actually, the state of Missouri has a protest of this nature in soccer.:eek:

The coach must notify the referee before play is restarted that he is protesting that the rules of the game are not being followed or applied properly and then has ten minutes to produce a rules book and prove his case.
____________________________________

Are you sure about this one?

There's no protest but coaches 'protest' calls all the time. If a coach wants to use a timeout to look up a rule concerning a call you just made, so be it.

protest - an expression or declaration of objection, disapproval, or dissent, often in opposition to something a person is powerless to prevent or avoid. That last part's pretty funny! :D

You stopped a game to pull out a rule book and look up the rule in the book?

You are setting up a dangerous precedent and will get you in trouble. If the state allows a protest tell him to write it down and file it with the state.

im from missouri

Ironic

From the "Show me State"

Absolutely insane! Is there a limit to how many times this can happen in a game? Is there any consequence for the coach being wrong, which he almost inevitably will be? I'd suggest a finger. Once the coach is out of those, no more protests (unless he wants to offer another part of his anatomy. . .).

That info is according to Mel on the NFHS forum. He refs in Missouri. I believe him.

They can call a time-out. If they are wrong, they lose the time out

And if they're right, they keep the timeout? Sorta like instant replay?

right! kind of like instant replay, however the coach has to find a rule book..i dont have to let him use mine:)

What state is that, and what is considered "reasonable"?

I am from missouri
Reasonable--10 seconds on the free throw line or lost of the coaching box after a T or anything thats consider to be correctable in the rule book or if the score counts after a player and/or team control foul

Not reasonable--thats not a foul (block/charge) stuff like that

Calif. volleyball is similar. Coach can challenge the existence of a specific rule, but not judgment calls. If the coach is right the ruling is corrected, if he/she is wrong the coach is penalized by having to burn a timeout; if no timeouts are left then the coach is penalized with a point to the other team, and if applicable, loss of rally.

If all things were equal, the BB coach could challenge that a "rule" exists that requires the free throw shooter to shoot the ball w/i 10 seconds; but could not challenge whether or not 10 seconds actually expired.

You're not really serious, are you?:confused:

10 seconds on the FT line is a judgment call -as to the official's counting speed. Loss of the coaching box is a simple rule that's been in forever. <b>None</b> of those are correctable.

If a coach ever pulled a rule book on me re: any kinda crap like that, he'd be reading it with his dashboard lights in the parking lot.

Are you sure that you're not just confusing an "appeal" with the normal correctable error procedure as laid out in R2-10 and R5-8-4?

Is there any else from Missouri that can confirm that they've got a system like that there?

The system as described (able only to challenge the existence of a rule such as punching violation or 10 seconds to shoot a freethrow or traveling on a throw-in) seems "reasonable." Lord knows it might educate the occasional referee and coach.

It makes sense to me. The official calls the makes the call at 10 seconds, but the coach belives that the shooter gets 15 seconds. The coach isn't protesting the counting of the official, he is protesting what the official is counting to.

A24 enters the game but in the score book his number is listed as 22. The officials assess the HC with an indirect T and inform him that he has lost the use of the coaching box. There is a whole chart in the back of the rule book saying when the HC is assesd an indirect techincal foul, it isn't very hard to imagine that somone somewhere has messed that up. The coach then pulls out his rule book and shows the officials that he is not assesed an indirect T in that situation.

What better way to get coaches to read the rule book?

I suppose
 

I could almost see it as a tool to shut the coach up. "Gee, coach, if you're so sure I'm wrong, why doncha call a time out so we can look it up? PLEEASE???" Truth is, most coaches just want to rant and complain, not actually to be right.

One thing I have to add to this is that in virtually every counting situation, the player is actually getting a bit more than the alotted time to make the play. I have yet to see a ref at any level, make a 10 second count in real time. If they were, their arm would be swinging a lot faster than it normally is. I've tried it, and timed other refs, and 10 seconds has usually elapsed by the time the ref got to 6 or 7.
That said, when a player gets called for a time violation, he usually deserves it.

On everything but free throws and 3 seconds, I try to time my counts with the clock. Every now and then I watch for three seconds and verify, to keep my count timed. If the defense earns a 10 second back court or a 5 second held or dribbled ball or 5 second throw-in, it's not fair to hold my whistle an extra couple seconds. Agressive defenses sometimes start fouling when they don't get their earned 5 seconds.

I've been doing this for 3 years and let me tell you, i had never had a coach prove me wrong

I have to tell you, I still think this is the dumbest thing I have heard about. Cnt believe anyone would rvrn think about this... If the coach is right then he does not lose his time out

I want to call time out because I dont think it was a travel.. lets look up the jump stop rule everytime I call it?

I want to call time out because (you insert it) we can look it up and tell you your interp is wrong....

If there are no time outs?

Kelvin, that's just it. Black and white rules references only. Travels are judgment calls, and judgment calls aren't eligible for protest. Coaches aren't going to waste their timeouts when they don't know the rules. When they do know the rules, then the refs won't have to worry about so much griping.

Also, FWIW, there ought to be some recourse when the refs are making calls that have no rules basis; such as "first to touch," or traveling on a throw-in, or giving the HC an indirect for changing the book after the 10 minute mark. I like it as long as judgment calls are exempt, and as long as there is a punishment for losing the protest. If there are no timeouts, either disallow the protest, or give them their timeout (and it's accompanying technical foul).

Kelvin, judgement calls are not protestable. If the coach is out of time outs, then he is s.o.l. They can protest anything that is not a judgement call. Fouls and traveling are not consider to be protestable. He can't protest whether or not a person has been illegally touch or not but they can protest whether or not a charge results in free throws because that put the other team in the bonus

I agree that this is what would happen here. But, I can see where a system like has been described could be in place, and handled "professionally". In that case, I'd live with it.

A system like that would probably just be a case of expanding 5-8-4 to include other situations. You would also have to include a whole new procedure into the equation though. Right now, with correctable errors and timing/scoring/AP mistakes, we just go ahead and fix them. The rule book doesn't get pulled because the official is supposed to know <b>when</b> a mistake is made and also <b>how</b> to fix it.

I guess the logical way of doing it might be requiring that each team would have to make a rule and case book available at the table. A case book would be necessary also because of the explicit rulings contained in there to explain some cloudy language. The fun part would be if the onus was placed on the coach to show the official where he was wrong, and if the official wasn't wrong, a TO was charged for each minute or part minute used while trying to look it up.

Can you imagine a system like this being implemented at the middle school level?:eek:

The "wishful thinking" post of the day. ;)

Why would coaches waste time reading the book when they already know them better than the officials?

All travel calls are judgement? How abut kid falling to the floor with ball and ref does not call a travel, Ref screws the rule---

Player takes one step and jump stops, then pivots and travel is not called... Is that judgement? or is that a misapplication of the rules...

Hopefully you can see where I am going with this...

bud lists another of "charge on team and deciding whether to shoot FTs" --- Isnt that judgement if there was team control or not?

The coach could almost stop any play and say it was the misapplication of a black and white rule.

I will stand by my statement that allowing this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard in basketball

Did the player have control of the ball?

Did he gather the ball before or after he jumped?

There's are still judgment calls, KG.

Because there's incentive to actually know them. "What's in it for me?" Have them lose a time-out once, and they'll start reading.

Kelvin, you are looking way into that "what if's" It's rather simple and coaches understand that also. They will not protest a travel or fouls on the basis of "judgement". I will call a protest when a rule that they never heard of, like 10 seconds on the free throw line. Deciding to shot during a team control or player control foul is a protestable offence. Coaches rarely use it because it's one of the they rather just get the game going and spend 10 mins looking up a rule that they can lose a time out.

While coaching 3 weeks ago, girl from opposing team continued to take a long time at the line - we were calling for the violation, but it did not come - finally, the fourth time at the line, at 10 sec on the dot...tweet... the opposing coach went nuts.... I thought he would get a T for second... I heard the ref say to him while coming down the court - "com'n coach - I gave you guys every opportunity to speed it up, now, you need to calm it down!"... he called her 3 more times that day....

Coach M,
S. Hagerstown Lady Rebels.

Bud, just to be perfectly clear, does Missouri currently have a state "protest rule" <i>per se</i> in basketball similar to what you are talking about? Iow, something that is completely different than what is in contained in the NFHS rule book?

Yes, had it happen this past summer. In the first quarter, kid took me to 12. I couldn't believe it. First time ever and I didn't call it, but I made a note. Next time I got back to him, it was in the 4th quarter and the game on the line. He took me to 12 and I blasted him. My partner didn't like the call. Said I didn't understand the spirit of the rule. I told him that this guy took me to the limit in the 1st half and I just made sure on him afterwards. I'm sorry that the point in time in the game was critical, thems the breaks....

A litlle preventative officiating would have gone a long way in this situation, imo.

I had a sister-in-law once who just had to be able to relate. Everything you'd done, she'd done, too; better and twice. She always had to be the center of attention, and could never allow herself to be upstaged or out-experienced.

Dilbert had a character exactly like that for a while.

Not trying to show my intellectual nature. Just saying, is all. I'm more of a "Wally" fan. He's my hero.

I hate that personality trait. I have TWO sisters-in-law and a mother-in-law like that. I'm sure they're worse than your sister-in-law ever was.

Cute. <b> </b>

:D I'm sure you do. ;)

Wally is my hero, too. You are wise beyond my years.

"This week I achieved unprecedented levels of unverifiable productivity."

Unlike the NFL, as long as coaches have a time out, he can protest

Maybe I should of label this the "protest" tbread

Yes, you should've.

In our clinic this year, one of my observers told me that I was counting way to fast for the 10-second count. We also video our sessions (mostly to look at positioning). Well, we counted and my count was always right on or a hair slow.......... I looked at my observer and suggested that he needed to speed up his count! :D

That was. . . um. . . bold. If your 10-second count on a free throw is exactly 10 seconds, then it is too fast.

Only time I've called this is in an intramural game with a running clock - even then, only once or twice.