Tip in at the buzzer
 

I saw this before my JC tournament game yesterday.

Team A (visiting) is down by 1 with 1.1 seconds left to play and must inbound the ball at the 28' mark opposite their bench. Everyone in the gym believes that Team A will set up an alley-oop play.

A1 inbounds the ball and passes it toward his team's rim for the alley-oop. The ball hits the back of the rim, bounces up, back down, rolls around the rim, and finally off the rim (what you have to picture is the players jumping up and down at the ball but no one touches it because their timing with the ball is off).

As the ball rolls off the rim the "horn" sounds to end the game but A2 (while both feet on the ground) quickly shoots the ball into the hoop (but thought the game was over because of the horn). The T & C know that the clock was started incorrectly.

Both teams think the game is over but the officials start to confer. Coach A & B realize what the officials are conferring about. Coach A starts complaining about that he is getting "homered" becauses he is the visiting team. Coach B says his players played the horn and did not defend A2's shot because they thought the game clock expired (and there was a defender right next to A2 when he shot).

1) What would you do?

2) What if either A or B touched the ball while it was on the rim? Basket interference?

Yes.

(and, yes, I'm ignoring question #1). ;)

Chicken. :)

I would put 1.1 seconds back on the clock and we would inbound the ball again.

I hate these clock starts late/early problems. FWIW, I agree with Tony in this case. As much as this looks like a do-over, it really isn't. You are just applying the POI rule. You are deeming the ball dead when the horn sounds and have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock. We also know where the throw-in should come from due to the FED's clarification of ball location this year.

Wow! I have no idea what I would do. While I agree that you could put 1.1 back ont he clock and a new throw-in, you will probably have to answer later to someone when the A Coach says his team won the game. Unfortunately, this is going to be bad either way so I think the best way to handle it IS to put the 1.1 seconds back on the clock and re-do the throw-in. What did the officials do?

Give coach A a "T" for calling me a "homer", of course.

Tony, I agree with you that we have a to inbound the ball again with 1.1 seconds on the clock, but where would you inbound the ball?

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline. Team A, should not be penalized because of the Timer's mistake. Making Team A inbound the ball from the original throw-in would penalize them for the Timer's mistake.

This play is not different from the other plays of the same nature that has been discussed over the last couple of years, such as the one I posted last month that took place in Michigan.

MTD, Sr.

MTD,
The description in the OP is a little confusing. I took the sequence to be:
1. Thrower releases the ball
2. The ball bounces around on the ring
3. The players are jumping up, but unable to touch the ball.
4. The ball comes off the front of the ring and is falling down towards A2 when the horn sounds. The horn sounded PRIOR to A2 touching the ball.
5. A2 catches the ball and quickly tosses it into the basket.


If that is the proper sequence, then 4-4-3 applies and the POI is the spot of the original throw-in. The NFHS made ball location clear in an interp this year.

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: Post players A5 and B5 are called for a double personal foul while the ball is in the air on a pass from A1 in A's backcourt to A2 in A's frontcourt. RULING: Team A had control of the ball when the double foul occurred, and thus play will be resumed at the point of interruption. Team A will have a designated spot throw-in in A's backcourt nearest to where A1 was last in contact with the ball. (4-4-3; 4-36; 6-4-3g; 7-5-9)


So, if A2 had caught the ball before the horn sounded, but had been unable to release the ball on a try for goal prior to the horn sounding, then I would agree with you that the POI throw-in should be on the end line.

Heckuva idea. Don't penalize team A. Let's penalize team B instead by giving team A better floor position when there's no rule extant saying you can do so. That's a much better idea than just repeating the play and giving neither team an advantage that can't be justified by anything in the rules. Yup, heckuva idea.:rolleyes:

If it isn't a "do-over", then what is it, Mark? Rules citation with your answer, please. If you can find a rule that will let <b>you</b> issue a <b>brand new and different</b> throw-in at a spot that <b>you</b> get to choose, I'll be ....well... surprised.

I gotta agree with JR here, but leave it to a dinosaur to use a word like "extant" in proper context! :D

I'm not just another pretty face, y'know.:D

mplagrow:

Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why isn't this play a do over? The answer is NO, and here is why:

1) Team A had the placed at its disposal for a designated spot stop-clocked throw-in. The spot of the throw-in for this play was on the sideline in Team A's front court.

2) By rule, Team A is to pass the ball such that it cross the sideline boundary and then touches or is touched by a player that is either inbounds or out-of-bounds. Team A did exactly that, as described in the play.

3) The fact that the Timer did not start the game clock correctly is not a factor in this play. The rules clearly state that the sounding of the game clock horn does not necessarily cause the ball to become dead or that play ceases. Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

4) Whether or not the game officials did or did not sound their whistles when the game clock horn sounded Team A DID complete the throw-in as required per the rules. a) If the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded then the ball became dead with their whistle. b) If the game officials did not sound their whistles until after A2 released the ball that subsequently went through the basket, then the ball did not become dead until after the top of the ball cleared the bottom of the net.

5) Therefore, by rule, if (4a) occured then Team A get the ball for a throw-in on its own endline nearest where A2 caught the A1's throw-in. If (4b) occured then Team B get the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the endline in its backcourt. In either case there are 1.1 second on the clock for either throw-in.

See the following 2006-07 NFHS Rules Book and Casebook:

RULES:
R2-S5-A5
R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7 (This reference may or may not be germane to this play but they are listed among the Timer’s duties.)
R5-S8 (I include this entire section because it may or may not be germane to this play, but it lists the Timer’s responsibilities regarding stopping the game clock.)
R5-S9-A1 and A4
R5-S10-A1 and A2

CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.9.3
5.9.4
5.10.1 Situations A, C(a, b c, and d), and D
5.10.2


See the following 2005-06 NFHS Casebook:

CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.10.1 Situation B (as well as the Comment)


MTD, Sr.

And this is where it all breaks down, Mark. Your statement above is completely wrong, by rule.
1) If the Timer not stopping the game correctly isn't a factor, then there's no applicable rule that will allow you to put time back on the clock to have another throw-in.
2) The rules clearly <b>do</b> state that the horn causes the ball to become dead at the end of a period. Rules 6-7-6 and 5-6-2 to be exact. There are exceptions to these rules, provided the ball is in the air on a <b>try or tap</b> when the horn goes. Unfortunately, for you, the ball wasn't in the air on a try or tap when the horn went off in this particular situation. The ball was in the air on a <b>throw-in</b> when the horn went off.

Everything that you so laboriously cited now goes down the crapper, Mark. None of it is even close to being applicable. All bafflegab iow.

I've never seen such a lenghty answer to a "rhetorical question" and I've never seen the question "Why ..." answered, "No." ;)

And what if the whistle sounded before A2 touched the ball? Then, the location is still the original throw-in spot.

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?

That's true.

It's also true that everyone else always disagrees with your rulings on those other plays. :)

Noboby touches the ball before time expires. Therefore, I'm going back to the original spot.

What difference would it make if the <b>throw-in</b> wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off?:confused: What <b>rule</b> can you apply to put a <b>new</b> throw-in on the endline.

Oooo, right!! Throw-in!! I was trying to be clever and point out that touching the backboard is like touching the floor. But touching the floor wouldn't matter here, would it? Oops!! :o

I agree 100%. This ball goes back to the original throw-in spot with 1.1 back on the clock. Everything that happened after the horn sounded, unless flagrant, is meaningless.

Actually, that's a good question. It made me realize that my earlier answer was right, but for the wrong reason. (BTW, I now know that MTD's answer is also clearly incorrect.)

That's why. I was using the wrong rule to justify my decision.
I was mistakenly thinking of the ball location requirement in 4-36-2a.
This part of the POI rule and thus the ball location rule 4-4-3 do NOT apply to this play because there is another rule which takes precedence. That rule is 4-36-2b. This is the correct rule to use.

Since the horn which caused the stoppage (and this particular horn does because it signals the expiration of time in a quarter, albeit incorrectly) went off prior to any player touching the ball all of this activity was during the throw-in. Therefore, we resume with the game with this throw-in despite the ball contacting the floor or the backboard and perhaps even the ring as none of those events end the throw-in. (Due to the wording of 4-4-5 and 4-13-1+2, there is room for debate about the ring, but I believe that it counts.)

If this play had taken place under slightly different circumstances then 4-4-3 and 4-36-2a may well be the correct rules to use. For example, if there were six seconds on the clock and Team B shoots a FT which bounces around on the ring and the timer incorrectly starts the clock at this point. When A1 rebounds the miss under the basket and throws a long pass down court, it would matter if the ball touches another player, the floor, the backboard, or maybe even the ring down there prior to the horn erroneously sounding. If it does then that is the location of the POI throw-in. However, if the horn sounds before the passed ball touches anything, then the throw-in would be from the nearest spot to where A1 was when he threw the pass.

Thanks for making me think this one out better, Scrapper/JR.

Oh? Even if you don't have definite knowledge as to how much time ran off the clock before it was touched up court? Got a rules citation to back that up?

Iow, I don't agree with you either.

If you put 6 seconds back on the clock, then the ball goes where it was at when there was 6 seconds on the clock. That's happens to be the closest spot to where A1 was when he rebounded the missed FT. If you put less than 6 seconds on the clock, then you had better have definite information as to how much time to take off. If you don't, there's no rule that I'm aware of that will allow you to administer a new and completely different throw-in up court to where the ball is at the re-adjusted time.

We agree about the definite knowledge aspect, so that's not an issue.

Where we disagree is the location of the POI throw-in when the clock is not going to be adjusted by the referee due to lack of definite knowledge.
The example that I gave above might not be the best one to use for those circumstances. It would, however, be a fine play to discuss under NCAA rules with a courtside monitor available.

Therefore, allow me to alter the play only slightly. The timer fails to start the clock and the official notices this, but has no definite knowledge of how much time has passed, when he blows his whistle:
a. while the ball is in flight during A1's long pass.
b. after the ball strikes the backboard in the frontcourt during A1's long pass.
c. after A2 catches A1's pass near the FT line in the frontcourt.
d. after A1's pass strikes the division line.

C'mon, JR, you're making it awfully tough. How can I possibly call this irascible?! Do I need to badger you until you get really grouchy, and then I can feel justified in laying it on you?

None of the above.

The ball goes to the closest spot to where it was first touched when the clock was supposed to start. That would be where A1 was the first player to touch the ball on a throw-in or missed FT, I imagine.

Again, you can't administer a new throw-in spot at the POI for any of the "a to d" scenarios unless you also take off the corresponding exact amount of time that was used to reach that spot. And you need "definite knowledge" to do so.

Well 4-36-2a says the throw-in is at the nearest spot to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred. 4-4-3 tells us that ball location is determined by where the ball last touched a player or the court. Seems that the correct throw-in spot is at that location.

As for what you wrote in red, I totally disagree. Why do you believe that is true? There is nothing in the book saying that is the case.

For example, what if I give you a part e: after A2 catches the pass and scores a goal?
Now are you going to tell me that I can't continue the game with a POI throw-in to Team B along their end line with six seconds still on the clock?

I don't have definite knowledge to change the clock, so what else can I do? I know that you aren't advocating that I cancel the basket and go back to the location where A1 touched the ball and the clock failed to the start. However, that is what your statement in red says. Sorry, but I think that you are incorrect.

Um, yeah. That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you all along.

If the stoppage was with 6 seconds to go, and the clock never started again, where would you administer the throw-in if A1 was the first player to touch the ball on the court when the clock should have started but didn't? Closest spot to where he was when he actually touched the ball or where he subsequently threw the ball?

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Well 4-36-2a says the throw-in is at the nearest spot to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred. 4-4-3 tells us that ball location is determined by where the ball last touched a player or the court. Seems that the correct throw-in spot is at that location.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


No, you have been trying to tell me to put the throw-in at A1's location.

That's the spot from where I would put the throw-in per the rules. That is not the same as the location of A1. In my examples, only part a would merit a throw-in nearest to the location of A1. In parts b,c,d,and e the throw-in would be at very different spots from where A1 was located. For the record those spots would correctly (per rules 4-36-2a and 4-4-3) be:
b. = end line in Team A's frontcourt
c. = end line in Team A's frontcourt
d. = sideline at the division line
e. = end line in Team B's backcourt with running rights.

For the record, I think that you're full of doo-doo. :D

But that's just me.

Carry on, but without me. I'm at the "repeating myself over and over" stage.

I think he's past the doo-doo stage by now.

He's full of Scapplie-doo-doo.

Argh.

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Is it?

Could it possibly be?

Did they really have midget pirates?

There's still hope, folks. We may have found some clues into the mysterious disappearance of Chuck Elias.

Stay tuned for episode 2......

Using what rule? If the ball is not touched, the clock never starts. If the ball goes in the basket or out of bounds prior to being touched, its a violation with the throw in at the original spot.