Shirt tucked in
 

Boys JV game. During FT administration official tells player to tuck in shirt from about 20 feet away. Tells him again. Tells him again. Issues delay of game warning.

Player says, "Huh?" He never heard the official. IPODs are ruining the kids' hearing, LOL.

If he doesn't hear by the 2nd time, I'm sure the coach will hear me loud and clear when I say "I need a sub!!"

I don't think you can issue a delay of game warning in the case. This is not one of the four delay of games warnings. 4-47-1.2.3.4 Rule Book

A player not conforming to the uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game. 4-15 Rule Book

You got it. :)

"Ditto"

Players do not COME IN or STAY IN with the shirt tail out.

I know that I'm gonna kick myself for starting this but.....:D

This came up on the NFHS forum.....

Does the shirt-tucked-in rule(NFHS 3-4-15) apply at <b>all times and any time</b> during the game? Pre-game warm-ups? Bench personnel? Intermissions?

If so, what is the penalty for non-compliance?

Common sense officiating should answer this one. Don't go looking for trouble it will find you.

I don't have my books handy to verify so this is strictly my opinion, The rule applies to all players involved in "live ball" situations. I do not believe the rule pertains to bench personnel or players during intermissions. To be blunt, "If we are playing ball, they will make every effort to keep it in."

Forget common sense.....:D

What do the rules say?

Do players in the pre-game warm-up have to tuck their shirts in?

I am sorry but its time for the obituary again.

Three yards of black fabric enshroud my computer terminal. I am mourning the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense.

His obituary reads as follows:

Common Sense, aka C.S., lived a long life, but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was, his birth records were long ago entangled in miles and miles of bureaucratic red tape.
Known affectionately to close friends as Horse Sense and Sound Thinking, he selflessly devoted himself to a life of service in homes, schools, hospitals and offices, helping folks get jobs done without a lot of fanfare, whooping and hollering. Rules and regulations and petty, frivolous lawsuits held no power over C.S.

A most reliable sage, he was credited with cultivating the ability to know when to come in out of the rain, the discovery that the early bird gets the worm and how to take the bitter with the sweet. C.S. also developed sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adult is in charge, not the kid) and prudent dietary plans (offset eggs and bacon with a little fiber and orange juice).

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, the Technological Revolution and the Smoking Crusades, C.S. survived sundry cultural and educational trends including disco, the men's movement, body piercing, whole language and new math.

C.S.'s health began declining in the late 1960s when he became infected with the If-It-Feels-Good, Do-It virus. In the following decades his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal and state rules and regulations and an oppressive tax code. C.S. was sapped of strength and the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, criminals received better treatment than victims and judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional baseball and golf. His deterioration accelerated as schools implemented zero-tolerance policies. Reports of 6-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing classmates, a teen suspended for taking a swig of Scope mouthwash after lunch, girls suspended for possessing Midol and an honor student expelled for having a table knife in her school lunch were more than his heart could endure.

As the end neared, doctors say C.S. drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments regarding regulations on low-flow toilets and mandatory air bags. Finally, upon hearing about a government plan to ban inhalers from 14 million asthmatics due to a trace of a pollutant that may be harmful to the environment, C.S. breathed his last. Services will be at Whispering Pines Cemetery. C.S. was preceded in death by his wife, Discretion; one daughter, Responsibility; and one son, Reason. He is survived by two step-brothers, Half-Wit and Dim-Wit.

Memorial Contributions may be sent to the Institute for Rational Thought.

Farewell, Common Sense. May you rest in peace.

I guess I'll chime in on this one seeings I started the discussion on the NFHS site. In pregame warm-ups I look for many things that I feel are prevenitive officiating. The rule book might not specifically address these things but I feel it is good game management. I look for many things like jewelery, sweatbands, headbands, hair clips, etc. One of the things I ask of the team members is to tuck in their jerseys if they do not have warm-ups on over them. What they do on the bench or during intermissions I'm not too concerned with but during pregame warm-ups I don't feel I am overstepping my bounds to nicely ask that team members tuck in their jerseys as they will have to have them that way when they play. Not a big deal but I feel this is a starting of setting the tone for the game.

Does that mean that rule <b>does</b> apply during warm-ups, Ed, but it <b>doesn't</b> apply during the game to bench personnel?

I guess what I am saying is the rule doesn't apply to pre-game warm-ups or bench personal. As stated (3-4-15) " A team jersey designed to be worn inside the pants/skirt shall be tucked inside the pants/skirt and the pants/skirt shall be above the hips and worn properly." It doesn't say when or where, but if a team member is representing a school I feel that it is appropriate for them to look and act respectfully. Would you let a team member wear their shorts with the waist down below their butt cheeks during warm-ups, or wear gold chains, rings, watches, ball caps, hair ribbons, multiple colored sweatbands, full length tights, and other such things? The uniform and how it is worn is again a Point Of Emphasis again this year, I feel that the pregame is a great time to emphasize the proper wearing of the uniform. As far as bench personnel, unless they are drawing undo attention to themselves I'm busy officiating a game. If they take the jersey off in the bench area and we see that then that is another story, for another thread.

1) That's covered under <b>UNIFORMS</b>- rule 3-4-15 also. To be consistent, I would say that you would have to call it exactly the same as the "shirt-tuck" rule. And, again, if you are consistent, shouldn't both be called the whole game, including pre-game, on the bench, intermissions, etc.?

2) There's a completely different rule and philosophy covering these items. They are covered under <b>EQUIPMENT, APPAREL</b> in rule 3-5, and are banned completely. The items in 3-4-15 aren't banned but are supposed to be worn in a certain way. Iow, you're comparing apples vs. oranges rules-wise.

No they don't and they also don't have to have all the snaps- snapped on their warmup pants. :D

In my pre-game with coaches/captains after I ask the coaches if the players are properly equipped and going to remain that way - I look at the captains and tell them that means their shirts are tucked in and their shorts are pulled up - this is your only warning. If you bust them in the first quarter you will not have another problem. I am such a jerk when it comes to this issue. When I beckon them in if their shirt isn't tucked in I tell them they aren't ready to enter the game and we'll get them next dead ball. You escort one player off the floor because his/her shirt is untucked the coach will take care of it. Just the way I do it.

That's nice. Most officials do so too.

But.....the question is whether you make them tuck their shirts in during the warm-up. Do you?

No - aren't they considered bench personnel at that time? I think rules like this only apply to live-ball situations. If a kid has blood on his jersey - they can sit on the bench can't they? They can't come back into the game until it's been taken care of. A player can have an illegal number but it's not a violation until they enter the game. In pre-game warm-ups I am not concerned with a jersey untucked. If a player is wearing an illegal headband or sweatband - I tell them they can't wear that in the game. Again, right? wrong? I don't know - just how I do it. I'm mostly looking for illegal things that someone's going to get injured on - metal clips in the hair, problem braces, etc. I don't see anything in the rules that tell me the shirt needs to be tucked in the shorts during pregame.

You bring up a valid point. I have never considered the rule 3-4-15 from that perspective. I'll have to ponder this one for a moment. I thought the shirt-tuck rule was intended for all players participating during a live ball. But the rule does not specify conditions or time periods for enforcement. So now, I could easily assume that the rule is in effect during the ENTIRE Official's jurisdiction. e.g. "including pre-game, on the bench, intermissions, etc.?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Better yet, somebody get the NFHS on the phone, tell 'em we got a question.............:D :D :D

NO!....wait, let me make it clearer...HELL NO!

My opinion:
 

I'm going to chime in with some Rule Book references here. While it never says when uniforms are to be worn properly, it does state, in ONE place, what is supposed to happen when a certain uniform violation occurs, which I personally think can be applied to uniform violations of all types. See if you follow me here:

3-4-15 A team jersey designed to be worn inside the pants/skirt shall be tucked inside the pants/skirt and the pants/skirt shall be above the hips and worn properly. A player not conforming to this uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game. A team member shall not remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt in the visual confines of the playing area. See 10-3-7h and 10-4-1h for penalty.

So the question is, if using my logic that we can apply this to all uniform violations, when is "the game," and does it include pre-game warm-ups? I think 2-2-2 tells us when "the game" is:

2-2-2 The officials' jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The officials' arrival on the floor shall be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.

This implies that "the game" starts when the ball first becomes live (i.e. when the opening jump ball is scheduled to occur), which does NOT include anything before that time.

Additionally, 10-3-2 refers to a penalty for a particular uniform violation, but I would hope that no one has assessed said penalty prior to the ball first becoming live to start the game:

10-3-2 Wear an illegal number or an illegal shirt or illegal pants/skirt.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) Each violation is penalized one time if discovered prior to ball becoming live for each designated starter and each substitute who enters.

So, logically, if you do not enforce a penalty for a uniform violation before the game starts......THEN YOU CANNOT ENFORCE SAID UNFORM RULES BEFORE THE GAME.

Do you direct someone to leave pre-game warm-ups for wearing an earring? No. You remind them it has to come out before they come in the game when they next get into the drill line in front of you. Do you direct someone to leave the pre-game warm-ups for having a brace made of hard, unyielding material, that is not properly covered? No. You take the issue up with the player/coach before the game starts, but you do not MAKE them stop warming up.

If one chooses to start enforcing uniform requirements during pre-game warm-ups, then so be it, but I do not think the Rule Book has any backing for it.

Actually for the instances you mentioned I would act on it immediately. The reason would be a safety issue - even for the player's teammates. If they have an earring in or a brace that is illegal someone on his or her team could be injured in warm ups so I would instruct them to remove the earring immediately and would immediately walk over to the coach with the player and discuss the brace. I do however agree with your logic, I just disagree with these illustrations.

You can't make them take the earring out or the undershirt off. You can only inform them they can't play with it. Let me repeat, they can't play with it. They can warm up with these things, just can't play. They can warm up in a tuxedo (complete with cufflinks and tie tack) for all I care, but when the game starts, they have to be dressed properly.

What is the definition of player? What is the definition of bench personnel?

A player not conforming to this uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game.

Does this answer the question?

I would say, if the players have to wear their mouthgaurds during warm-up and they have to be "ready to play" during warm-up, then I enforce that the shirts have to be tucked in during warm-up.

Why would anyone wear a tie tack with a tuxedo? Bow tie dragging in the gravy? :D

Whoa, Snaqs. As Mountaineer said, there is a very specific rule stating that jewelry cannot be worn during warm-ups. That includes cufflinks too.:) They have to go sit on the bench until they remove the jewelry. Casebook play 3.5SitB. There is no similar definitive rule or case play covering tucked-shirts during warm-ups that I know of though. They are covered under completely different sections in the rule book too.

Fwiw, a very credible source in the similar thread on the NFHS site has also stated that his state has issued a directive that shirts should be kept tucked in during warm-ups. Just thought that I'd throw that into the discussion too.

Yes, you do stop them warming up. See case book play 3.5SitB.

I believe that MASS has a mouthguard rule. I don't know if wearing the mouthguard during warm-ups is mandatory also though. Maybe someone from MASS can chime in here.

No.<i></i> Case book play 3.5SitB uses the term "team member", as defined in R4-34-4. The inference is that anybody warming up pre-game is a "team member".

Unfortunately, case book play 3.5SitB also states that the the official must inform the team member to remove the jewelry immediately. That statement is completely contradictory to other directives issued by the FED when the "jewelry" rule was implemented. The directive always has been that you can't tell a team member to remove jewelry. Instead, you tell them that they simply can't warm-up or play until they do so.

Rational Opinion
 

HawkEyeCubP: Although I disagree with you regarding the earring worn during warmups, I really like the "style" of your post. You start out by indicating that this is your opinion, not a directive from the ghost of Dr. Naismith, you offer complete rule citations, so I don't have to go into the next room, get out my official's bag, and get my Rule Book, and you offer further rule citations that clarify rule citations that you've already offered. Not only that, you seem to offer the members of the Forum information, in the form of rule citations and opinions, in a rational, completely non-judgemental way, no name calling, no put downs.

Like many others on this Forum, I've missed Chuck. I don't think that he can be replaced, but you, and a few others, have come real close. Please keep on contributing to this Forum. I look forward to your future threads and posts.

Well, it's not the first time I've changed my mind. From now on, I'm catching this while they get off the team bus. :)

More of my opinion:
 

Jurassic - Thank you for the Case Play. I see where I'm wrong regarding the earring example (and therefore, logically, anything safety related). But I'm sticking to my guns on the uniform stuff.

To go along with JimGolf's point - I've included the only times the uniform rules refer to either "team members" or "players." They are as follows:

3-3-14 The American flag may be worn on the team shirt provided it does not exceed 2 x 3 inches and does not interfere with the visibility of the player's number.

3-3-15 A team jersey designed to be worn inside the pants/skirt shall be tucked inside the pants/skirt and the pants/skirt shall be above the hips and worn properly. A player not conforming to this uniform policy shall be directed to leave the game. A team member shall not remove the jersey and/or pants/skirt in the visual confines of the playing area. See 10-3-7h and 10-4-1h for penalty.

Going along with 4-34 (def. of "player"), the first two places above where "player" is used should, then, only be enforced when they are actually players, and not simply team members, logically.

And I can use this logic because I don't live in the state Jurassic mentioned.:)

Have any of you walk in the hallways at a high school recently? You would be hard pressed to find a dozen males with their shirts tucked in. 30 years ago, you would have not seen a dozen with their shirts hanging out.

The rule is going to continue to be a nag at us officials until the style changes again.

If we make players tuck there jerseys in, should we make officials use some sort of strapping device for their whistle? Holding the whistle in their hand is a style, trend, whatever ... just like kids and the way they wear their clothes.

The NCHSAA requires us to enforce the shirt tuck rule during warm-ups. The rule reads, "A team jersey designed to be worn inside the pants/skirt shall be tucked inside the pants/skirt and the pants/skirt shall be above the hips and worn properly." It does not say "during the game," it does not say "player." Just because the next statement explains what to do during the game, that doesn't mean that it doesn't apply before the game.

If you or your state association chooses to interpret the rule to mean during the game only, great. But the way the rule is worded, it can certainly be interpreted to mean the jersey must be tucked when the participant is on the court. Choose how you want to interpret but don't be critical because someone else interprets it differently. It's not that big of a deal.

Before anyone asks, I couldn't care less what happens while they're sitting on the bench. But when they're on the floor, it needs to be tucked. If he comes to the table, it'd better be tucked, otherwise he's not coming in. For me, the NFHS doesn't want jewelry or a baseball cap being worn during warm-ups, so why wouldn't they want everyone properly equipped in all facets during warm-ups?

I really don't see the big fuss. It's preventive officiating. I've never run into a problem asking a someone to tuck in his/her jersey during warm-ups. In fact, every time I've ever had a coach hear the request, he/she has back me 100%. Start it before the game and you won't have a problem during the game.

I'm done.

EDIT: BillyMac, turn on your private messaging.

Pre-Game it!
 

Hence the importance of a doing a pre-game with the coaches. I always tell them in advance that we won't let the players come in if there shirts are untucked. This way the coaches won't blame us for not letting them in. They know from the very beggining that we wouldn't let them come in.

I as well would NOT give a delay of game warning. Just throw that issue in the pre-game and it'll be taken care of!

Johnny, there are reasons other than style for this. Some guys (who have posted on your other thread) have told you the practical benefits.

Why do some choose a smitty and others use a noose? It's style; should we choose one and make everyone go with it to eliminate style?

Style itself is not bad; it's not like they're out there wearing pink and green stripes. It's subtle.

Sorry, I forget that the mouthguard is state-regulated. In NH, players must wear mouthguards during any school sponsored (or NHIAA regulated) sport, including practices and school summer ball.

The full language of the rule in Massachusetts: Mouth guards are required for all basketball players while on the court.

We are also told:
• Mouth protectors must be worn in all practices and games. This includes pre-season scrimmages, jamborees as well as the state tournament.
• Mouth protectors are required of all participants at all levels of interscholastic competition (Freshman, Junior Varsity, Varsity).

Administration on the Court:
• In the event a player intentionally participates without a mouthguard, the game official will require that the player be replaced at the next dead ball whistle. The removed player may not re-enter until after the clock has started and a substitution opportunity occurs.

I do not require mouth guards to be worn during warm up. Most players wear them, although many tuck them under their shirt strap until they are playing.

Does that mean that they're not mandatory during warm-ups? Or that the subject just hasn't ever really been clarified one way or t'other?

I cited the exact wording of the Massachusetts rule.

It has not been further clarified by the MIAA nor by my association interpreter. I take the language to mean "while the ball is live" and not during warmups. I know it also says they must be worn in practice....but that is obviously up to the coach, not the official.

Iow, it's basically the same as the FED jewelry rule. It can be interpreted either way.

I'm kinda surpised that the MIAA didn't clarify it like N.C. did. It's a whole bunch easier on all officials if you can get a uniform ruling to apply.