Fans on sideline is touched with ball
 

:confused: Help with this. Has not happened yet, but will in the future.
Fan walking up sideline in small gym. Half on the court and half off. A1 dribbling the ball up the court. Ball hits fan that is touching 1/2 on & off the playable court. Is ball OOB? And if yes, then does B get the ball? I don't have my book today, please give ruling number. Thanks

The ball is OOB as per rule 7-1-2(b). It sounds like the the fan interfered with play. If so, give team A the ball back for a throw-in. Use case book play 7.1.2SitB(a) as a guideline. Almost the same situation.

Don't forget to toss the fan.

This was a hypothetical situation, not a real one. I'm surprised you assumed the fan deliberately interfered with no evidence other than walking half on and off court. I've been in gyms where it's almost impossible to get back to your seat without walking along the sideline.

7-1-2(b) just says the ball is OOB, presumably off of A1 who was dribbling. A1 should watch where he/she is dribbling.

I've reffed in gyms where there was only room for fans to stand/sit 1 deep against the wall, and could conceivably see this very thing happening. Personally, I'm letting play continue, and if the ball hitting the fan causes interference with the play, I'm giving it back to team A.

What? A fan touches the ball and you have a "play on?" Come on...are you really serious?

I once actually had an assistant coach intentionally reach out & interfere with the ball as opponent's player was dribbling it up the sideline in front of the bench - earned himself a flagrant T for that one.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.
b. Any other person, the floor, or any object on or outside a boundary.

I agree with JR. Whether the fan interference is deliberate or not doesn't matter. The fact that the fan is partially in the court does. The fan shouldn't be there, but sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise. Therefore, instead of a strict enforcement of 7-1-2, which was not intended to cover this situation, use 2-3 to stop play and give Team A a throw-in.

Now if the fan were completely OOB, then I would simply follow 7-1-2.

In the gym's I'm talking about, I'm totally serious. And the OP didn't say that the fan touched the ball, it said the ball hit the fan.

Are you saying that you would give team B the ball?

I was working a freshman boys game once. You just knew the V coach had a talk with his kids about playing on the road, ignoring the a-hole fans, etc. They hardly said a peep all night. The home team, and their fans, were entirely opposite. In the middle of the contest, while V had the ball in the frontcourt, a couple of kids ran out onto the court about five feet from the sideline, right in the middle of the play. I had my back to them and didn't see where they came from, otherwise, I would have whacked the home team for a T. I was 99% sure they were home fans, but noe 100%. I did visit with the coach and game mgt, but they were both basically worthless in terms of helping.

I'm going to have to review the case book citation you mentioned. But that was my interpretation of the rule. A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds. Sort of like Jeffrey Meyers. Home run or fan interference?

Does it matter?

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:

Why would you whack the home team in this situation? If I saw them I would have them removed and then continue the game.

You apparently have the pleasure of only working in gymes with 84-94 ft floors and wide sidelines.

That is not what I am saying, the play in question is covered in the rule book, and it is not a "play on."

It is when it I'm reffing in a 60 foot gym.

This case is talking about hitting a player in the game (B1). A fan is not a player. The ball is out of bounds, and A1 caused it to be out of bounds. Who gets the ball?

OK, , I guess I should remember this, the next time, as a fan, I want my team to get the ball back. I'll just reach out, over the OOB line and touch the ball dribbled by the opponent.
Follow the rule exactly?--normally yes, but in this sich I'm ruling common sense...

How did A1 cause the ball to OOB if he was dribbling it in-bounds? The <b>fan</b> caused the ball to go OOB by interfering with the play. Whether that interference was deliberate or not has no bearing on the play either.

There is no wayinhell you can logically charge A1 with a violation under R9-3-1. Again, the fan caused the ball to go OOB, not A1.

If the fan came 4 feet onto the floor and knocked the ball OOB, would you call a violation on A1 too?

Just give the ball back to team A.

Lah me......

Great example. :)

Of course, some fool is going to tell you not to charge the team associated with this supporter with a technical foul. :rolleyes:

If you want to make things up, then fine. The rules you cited say otherwise and the case you cited has nothing to do with the play. BTW the fan who is straddling the line is technically OOB, not inbounds. So by hitting the fan, he is dribbling it OOB. I also can't follow why you are saying that the fan hit the ball when the OP says the ball hit the fan.

Unless you've got a better rule citation than the ones you've given, then you have to give the ball to B.

Jim, I'd cut my own nuts off before I'd give the ball to team B in this situation.

The ball would <b>not</b> have gone OOB except for the fan interference. You don't penalize a team for fan interference either. Well..... I thought that you don't. Apparently, I was wrong. There's at least one official that would.

Unbelievable.......

Slight Variation
 

KYcat1: great post. Generated a lot of good discussion.

For the good of the cause, I would like to make a slight change in KYcat1's original play. I bring this up because this new play is based on one of those "unannounced" changes made by the NFHS a few years ago, and there are probably a small percentage of Forum members who may not be aware of the change.

A-1 is dribbling up the sideline and he or she, not the ball, touches a player, coach, official or fan, who is out of bounds. The call: No violation.

A few years ago the NFHS rule stated that a dribbler could touch a player who was out of bounds and not violate the out of bounds rule. Within the past few years the NFHS has changed the rule, I believe "unannounced", so that a player may now touch a person, any person, not just a player, without violating. By "unannounced", I mean that the change was made without being included in the annual rule changes, editorial changes, and points of emphasis.

Forum members: When did this change occur?

Case Book play 7.1.1 was changed in the 2004-05 season. The change was unannounced. The key is that the touching must be "inadvertent" and it must occur "without [the player] gaining an advantage."


Here is the current version:
7.1.1 SITUATION A: A1, while holding the ball inbounds near the sideline, touches (a) player B1; (b) a photographer; (c) a coach; (d) an official, all of whom are out of bounds. RULING: A1 is not out of bounds in (a), (b), (c) or (d). To be out of bounds, A1 must touch the floor or some object on or outside a boundary line. People are not considered to be objects and play continues. Inadvertently touching someone who is out of bounds, without gaining an advantage, is not considered a violation.

What if the ball strikes an official straddling the OOB line?

An official being touched by a ball is not fan interference.

Fan interference is fan interference.

Call anything that you want to. I disagree completely with you and always will.

When do you start enforcing the rule??

63 foot gym
65 foot gym
68 foot gym
70 foot gym
????????????

Specifically covered in the rules. The rules don't anticiapte that a fan might interfere (except in the unsporting manner covered in 2-8-1 and 2.8.1) -- especially one who is partially on the court. So, use rule 2-3. I'd be inclined to treat it as an "inadvertant whistle" and, in the specific case mentioned, give the ball back to A.

So is hitting a fan.

Rule 7 Out of Bounds and the Throw-in
SECTION 1 OUT-OF-BOUNDS — PLAYER, BALL
ART. 1 . . . A player is out of bounds when he/she touches the floor, or any
object other than a player, on or outside a boundary. For location of a player in the air, see 4-35.
ART. 2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.
b. Any other person, the floor, or any object on or outside a boundary.
c. The supports or back of the backboard.
d. The ceiling, overhead equipment or supports.
NOTE: When the rectangular backboard is used, the ball is out of bounds if it
passes over the backboard.
SECTION 2 CAUSING THE BALL TO GO OUT OF BOUNDS - INDIVIDUAL PLAYER
ART. 1 . . . The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds to touch it or be touched by it, unless the ball touches a player who is out of bounds prior to touching something out of bounds other than a player.
ART. 2 . . . If the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched by a player who is on or outside a boundary line, such player causes it to go out.

Jim, as an official, you've got a great future behind you.:D

Note the "smiley".

Are you saying that the spectator walking to his/her seat constitutes fan interefence? The rules state that officials can punish unsporting conduct by team followers, not spectators merely walking to their seats.

It must be nice to always work on roomy courts where this never happens.

Roomy courts have got nuthin' to do with nuthin'. If it happens, it happens.

I'm saying that if a player dribbles the ball, and that dribbled ball would have bounced IN-BOUNDS <b>if</b> the ball hadn't touched a fan who was intruding on the court, then I'd cut my nuts off before I'd give the ball to the other team. The dribbler did <b>NOT</b> cause the ball to go OOB. The fan <b>DID</b>. And I ain't penalizing a player for a fan's action. Ever.

That does make it plain enough for you, Jim?

I'm telling you how I would call it. I know how you would call it. We disagree. And that ain't gonna change.

I thought that the only provision in the rules for a smaller gym had to do with a 3-foot "restraining line" for throw-ins. What else is in the rules?

Division line for backcout/frontcount determination.

Fans on sideline is touched with ball
 

Why hasn't anyone jumped on this yet? :confused:

"Fans on sideline is touched with ball"

Grammatically incorrect! Let's fix it:

"Fan on sideline is touched with ball"

or maybe this,

"Fans on sideline are touched with balls":D

I think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in this instance. let's get these fans away from the floor if possible! Instances like these can be greatly prevented if we look at the floor and search for potential problem areas, instead of "hoping" that situations like this don't happen.

I call OOB and give to team B. To me that is BY RULE!