Technical Foul
 

Just want to make sure I understand the NFHS rules on this.

4th Quarter - Team B has 6 players on the floor. Somehow the referees do not pick up the problem until 5 seconds is gone from the clock.

Indirect technical is called on the coach. 2 free throws and the ball for team A. Team fouls are increased by one. Coach now has a indirect, thus must sit.

Please confirm our findings.:confused:

Not quite right.
1. Having more than five team members participating must be detected while it is being violated in order to be penalized. In your case, it was.
2. The proper penalty is a TEAM technical foul per rule 10-1-6.
3. 2 FTs and the ball at the division line are awarded to the opponent.
4. One team foul is added to the offending team's total for the half that counts towards reaching the bonus for the opponents.
5. The head coach of the offending team is NOT charged with an indirect T and may still use the coaching box.

What he said.

For that situation, I would not penalize the team. As an official we should have detected and not put the ball in play until you had counted the number of players from each team. IMO

Why? It's the coaches responsibility, not the officials. We have no obligation to count the players

Does that mean that you won't penalize someone if you see them wearing an illegal number either because you should have caught it before.

You may want to read case book play 10.1.6(a).

Sorry, but you're completely wrong in your thinking. Just call the rules we have and don't make up your own.

Preventative officiating is the key. ALWAYS count the number of players EACH team has on the floor before putting the ball in play. But . . . CV is right. The responsibility lies with the Head Coach, and what Nevada said.

Then my question to you is: In what situation would you penalize for having too many players on the court?

Ideally never. As a crew you should communicate and make sure you have 10 players ready to go. That being said, if the officials don't catch it, it's really on the coach and the players to make sure there's the right number out there. If you have too many call the T. In the situation described, it sounds like there may not have been enough communication between partners before the ball was at the disposal of the inbounder. After 5 seconds elapse with too many players, you absolutely have to call the T.

It just part of game management. Although the rule book states that, I always count the number of player before I put it in play or my partners do and give me the go ahead. I want that T to have a meaning when I give one out. I know I am going to get a big thrashing for that comment. Just pour it on..

I would give it to someone coming on when not acknowledge or Also I have to clarify at the High school level they should know, at the Fr or Middle school I would not be too easy to give one out.

Hopefully we are all counting before putting the ball in play. But sometimes we make mistakes or miscount. It is still incumbent on the team making the substitution to ensure their player(s) leave the court when a replacement enters.

I will tell you if you do not call a T for this, you have just lost credibility with both coaches and any other rule that is obvious and you do not enforce, look out my man. You have to penalize this. I agree that most of the time this is the official's fault if we do not count players, but not all times is this about counting players. You might have had a player run onto the court. You may even have a player run off the court and they were not seen at that time. Teams should know when to come onto the court or when not to come on the court ultimately. You have to penalize this. It is an obvious violation of the rules. It is also very preventable, but there are rare situations when players do not leave the court and even sometimes I have had 6 players enter the court after a timeout.

I agree to a point, but you should not just ignore this violation of the rules when it is so obvious to someone.

Peace

A technical foul is just what it says, technical. It's a way of dealing with infractions of the technical aspects of the game. Why must it have any meaning? Sure, we debate a lot about the judgement aspects of giving T's for unsporting behavior. But there are many basic, objective technical infractions for which the proscribed penalty is a technical foul.

Yes, we should count the players. Yes, we should castigate ourselves if we allow a team to put more than five players on the floor. We should prevent what we can reasonably prevent, and this is reasonably preventable. But just because we don't happen to catch this infraction doesn't mean we should set aside the penalty for it.

Everybody on the planet knows what the penalty for six players on the floor is. People living in caves who have never seen a basketball know what the penalty is. Why would you shy away from calling what everybody expects you to call? It's not personal, it's not even confrontational/behavioral/game-management, it's a technical infraction of the rules by a team and merits a technical foul.

You want impact? Enforce the appropriate penalty for this careless/clueless behavior and the players will be significantly more aware of how many players are coming onto the floor after a timeout from that moment on.

What other basic rules will you set aside?

Point well taken! I haven't had to issue a T for this infraction so I won't elaborate any further. Watch it will happen to me tonight. I guess we have had good pregames and we discuss everything under the sun. Our Pregame normally is about 45 mintues. We try to cover all aspects.

The thing is, you can pregame this all you want, and some team somewhere is going to have to get hit for this anyway because B12 doesn't realize coach subbed for him at the time out but lingers around the bench while the players take their seats after the "thirty." You and your partners count 5, but don't realize B12 isn't going to sit down, and put the ball in play. Then you realize B is playing a "box and 2" defense. It only takes a moment's lapse in concentration at the wrong time. It's a T because it's the coach's responsibility; otherwise it would be a correctable error.

Pre-games are great and essential but they don't make us infallible. We're still going to miss something from time-to-time. But playing with 6 on the court is illegal and once it happens we have to penalize accordingly.

I don't like some of the correctable error statutes and correctable errors are, in my opinion, always the officials' fault, but we still must enforce the consequences according to the rulebook. Preventing correctable errors are always part of the pre-games but they still happen.

You have an hour and a half pre-game and it is not going to change that there will be a situation someone screws up. Even the table can make this difficult for you and not stop a potential substitution problem that can lead to 6 players on the court.

Peace

Hey, if you really feel like that, go ahead and do whatever you want to do. Ignore the rules that you don't like. It might be the last time that you ever work at that level, but that's probably best for everybody anyway.

Was watching some of my fellow officials the other evening, and this exact situation happened. It was a twenty point blow out at the time. In talking to the officials after the game they said that it was their fault and that is why the situation happened. Well during the time the team had six on the court, one of the players realized it and left the court for the bench. After she left another one left. Then when they realized they only had four one came back on from the bench. Yes we should count, but like others have said it is the coach and teams responsibility to know better. In this case a tech would have stopped all the other things from happening and not lost the credibility of the crew. Call the tech and move on. I'll bet they pay closer attention the next time.

If a player while dribbling steps on a boundary line, you blow the whistle and call him for an out of bounds violation. That's the rule.

If a free throw shooter crosses the free throw line before the ball hits the rim, you blow the whislte and call him for a free throw violation. That's the rule.

If a player dunks the ball in pregame warmup, you call a technical foul on him and an indirect on the head coach. That's the rule.

I could tell them all not to do those things. And they all know they are not supposed to do those things. But when they do, it's our place as officials when we recognize the illegal act to penalize it according to the rule. And they all know that's what we're supposed to do.

6 players from the same team participating at the same time? Duhhh..... Saddle is on target. This is NOT one of those things that requires "solomonic wisdom" concerning whether to penalize. It is a basic, objective technical infraction. Don't make it hard. Everyone knows what's supposed to happen. Just do it.

A-freakin-men! :D :D :D

Also.....A-freaking-women.

I'm now the kinder, gentler politically-correct JR. I certainly wouldn't want to disappoint Rainmaker

:o

It is forbidden to give a T for these infractions? :D

It's my new wireless keyboard. It doesn't spell as well as my old one :o

I don't like some of the correctable error statutes and correctable errors are, in my opinion, always the officials' fault, but we still must enforce the consequences according to the rulebook. Preventing correctable errors are always part of the pre-games but they still happen.[/QUOTE]

If you are counting the table crew as part of the officiating crew, then maybe I agree. But, if you mean the 3(2) persons that are calling the game, then I disagree wholeheartedly. Most of the miscommunication involved with correctable errors comes from the table.

You know, if you're going to treat the 'a' in 'amen' as a prefix, then the word should mean "non-men," just as 'amoral' means "non-moral." So isn't that already politically correct?

Of course, the ancient Hebrews who invented the word weren't very politically correct, and they didn't use many Latin prefixes either...:p

If there is miscommunication concerning team fouls and time-outs then it is (IMO) our fault as officials because we are not communicating with our table personnel enough and we are not keeping track in our heads 2 sets of numbers that I think are very easy to keep up with. (please excuse sentence-ending preposition)

And if there are 2 scorebooks (H & V) then late in games I will check to make sure they both have the same players in foul trouble (3 or more fouls).

I had a similar Tee
 

Dead ball.Player subs in. Player leaving the court is stopped by coach but stays on the court. I tell coach she has to leave the court. He replies " I'm coaching here. " I get set to administer throw-in and player still hasn't left the court. I hand ball to player for throw-in, glance over and she still hasn't left. I tweet. And do the 2 shot thing. Not the exact same SITCH but always wondered if I could have given the coach a direct for that one.......

Nice job. Point made. We had a coach in a varsity game (not my game) want a T called because the officials put the ball in play just before the player got off the court. She was hustling off, but the officials were trying to keep the game flowing. Obviously, the official didn't give the T.