Over-rule your partner?
 

A1 bringing ball across division line under moderate pressure. I am trail (2-whistle), across the court with clear view of the play. Ball and one foot are in frontcourt. One foot has never left back-court. A1 then dribbles ball again in backcourt.

My partner blows the whistle from the lead and calls a backcourt violation.

He is wrong. He is calling out of his area. I have nothing but court between me and the play and have been watching (and counting) the entire time.

So what do you do? Get together with him and let him know one foot never left the backcourt? Do nothing and talk to him after the game?

What do I do?....

I get with my partner and ask him what he saw. If he can't talk me out of what I saw...then we go with an inadvertant whistle and give the ball back to the team that almost got screwed.

A couple of things. One, find another partner you can trust. Two, meet with him after he blows the whistle, tell him emphatically that the one foot of the player in question was in the backcourt at the time of his whistle. Tell him he will need to explain to each coach that he had an inadvertent whistle and that play will resume at the mid-court with the same team retaining control. If he is allowed to call that play from the lead and you're willing to accept, then whatever comes your way from that situation you will deserve.

I would definitely get together to try and make the call right or at least try for the inadvertant whistle. I certainly wouldn't argue about it though. If he is adamant about it, it could get ugly.

All I can say is wow! It is almost impossible for me to believe that a guy came from the lead to get that! How crazy did the coach go?

[QUOTE=BayStateRef]

So what do you do? QUOTE]

Were you working with Ed Hightower?

Had a similar thing happen in a game this past week:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=30171

Fortunately (or not), the coaches (and everybody else in the gym) were too dumb to know the rule, so they were crying for a BC violation anyway.

Having read this, I'm wondering if I shouldn't have done something about it :( It wasn't a game-changing call (the game was a blowout in the end) but you always want to "get it right".....

I'd like to think I'm going to have two discussions with my partner. One would be right away and give him an opportunity to go with an inadvertant whistle. Whether he changes it or not, we're having another talk in the privacy of the dressing room later; and whether he changes his call will have a lot to do with how that second conversation goes.
I'd like to think that's what I'd do. Until I do it, though, I can't say for sure. Being new to the area this year, I'm feeling my way through the season and figuring out who's who. Of course, I haven't had the pleasure of having my partner call BC from the L. :)

Does anyone else realize the contradiction, not in this thread, but on the board about plays like this? If a poster is the lead and sees something, it is OK to go ask your partner a question. If someone is a trail and the lead makes a wrong call then we talk to the lead to try and talk him/her out of the call.

How about this, quit watching the ball, trust your partner and officiate the game. I might live in a vacuum, although that vacuum would have had to be in Arizona, Nevada, Maryland, DC and Mississippi, but high school officials that I've seen just need to worry about keeping things basic and looking in their primary. The honest truth is that for every "game-saving" call officials make in a high school game there are probably 8-10 BS calls they could have made or passed on before then. IMO this is just getting ridiculous.

This is exactly why I posted this.

What I did: I immediately went up to him, told him the girl's foot never left the backcourt. He said OK, yelled out "inadvertant whistle, white ball" and we played on. No problems from the coaches.

I know this guy works a lot of games (youth leagues, men's leagues) solo and I chalked it up to "reflex" on his part. There were other calls during the game that he made in my primary.

Virtually same call happened to me over the weekend. I was T on a 2-man team with A1 bringing ball up the court. She crosses into FC and gets trapped, throws the ball back to A2 who is still in BC. A2 jumps (both feet off the floor when contact with the ball was made) and lands in FC squarely with ball in hand. The L whistles for a BC violation...we conference and agree to disagree, but he does acknowledge it was not his call and defers to me. I say inadvertent whistle and we play on with A getting the ball.

The nice part here was no argument from either bench...in fact, it may have been the only no argument whistle all night.

One of my main arguments concerning this subject is what we talk about as acceptable and not acceptable. There are people reading these posts that are trying to move up in the high school ranks and a continued discussion about ball-watching does not help officials and make the game better. Don't watch the ball and make excuses for it, end of story. Sure, there are no absolutes because the game is never the same twice and things happen. However, no matter how you fix it up, ball-watching is not a good thing for the game.

The rest of my preachy comments deleted.

If I'm reading your post correctly, A1 crosses into FC therefore we now have FC possession by Team A. She passes back to A2 who is still in the BC but jumps, catches the ball, and lands in the FC. That is still a BC violation as A2 still had BC status at the time she caught the ball. In which case, the L was correct on this call.

Can you tell me the rule/case reference for this, please?

Thanks!

Yep, I totally missed it and we discussed it at halftime. He (10+ yrs. experience) allowed me to stick to my guns on the incorrect call (me, total rookie), thinking it would be a learning experience for me to catch grief from one or both benches. Team B was winning by 22 at this point in the game, so he didn't feel like it would negatively impact the outcome by letting me make a mistake and learn from it.

What surprised him the most was no argument from either coach, but the lesson was not lost on me. I have no doubt in a closely contested game, I would have been flamed.

Question: When She crosses into FC, areboth feet and the ball now in FC?

IF no, then no call or IAW is correct.

If yes, then when she throws the ball back to A2 who is still in BC. A2 jumps (both feet off the floor when contact with the ball was made) and lands in FC, this is is a BC violation. A2 did not have FC status until she lands, when she touched the ball she had BC status causing the BC violation.

You are where your are until you get where you are going. Rule-4 Section-35 Article-3

If the dribbler crossed into the frontcourt, she must have had both feet and the ball in the frontcourt, by rule. If she didn't, she wouldn't have crossed into the frontcourt. She'd still be in the backcourt, also by rule. It's that simple.

NFHS 4-35-3

This is true for a dribbler only. If she's not dribbling; she's got FC status as soon as she's holding the ball with at least one foot in the FC and no part of her touching the BC.

on the part about partners calling out of primary and court coverage snafus after we pre-game who covers what in the gray zone and what happens on contact in the gray zone I still get a lot of guys calling through the lane and fouls that occur after the play has turned away from them and they get straight lined when their partner is the only one with a clear look at any contact.

When I mention any of this I can tell that most of them dont give a rats azz to listen to me because most of the time I am at least 10-15 years their junior. It takes a lot for me to get frustrated and one thing that gets me is erors that happen after we plan on what to do in those exact situation and then after the first screw up and I go over with them "Hey partner please hold your whistle for a second on those calls through the lane -- and unless you have a felony trust me to make that call" what do I get -- more calls through the lane -- and most of the time they are on plays that has the ball handler going away from the basket or towards the endline not the paint.

Man it is crazy to see how much regular season ball is being called with 2-man crews. I could never imagine doing a 2-man game in regular season basketball although the money would be nicer.

It's not like we're given a choice. Oregon isn't even considering 3-man from what I've heard. I don't know if it's a cost issue, but if it is I can understand it. The public school system has plenty of money issues already - spending it on 3-man officiating crews is pretty silly when they can't even buy enough textbooks.

southern california (at least south orange county is)is proposing 3 man for all league varisty contests starting next year. And highly reccommending 3man for all varsity contests not just league games.

Pay difference between 3 and 2 man isnt that huge but if anyone here is doing HS ball for the money I would suggest a good exit strategy.

The only reason I officiate might not have anything to do with the money, but I am not doing it for free either. Those checks add up and that money can and will be used for things I would like to use it for. ;)

Peace

I would keep talking to them. If it isn't a foul I would certainly tell them and when they act like they don't care I would add the fact that they couldn't see the play and it wasn't a foul. If it is a foul I would come with a late whistle and not even look at them on the way to the table. I would tell them later that I didn't look at them because it wasn't their call and they shouldn't have had a whistle anyway. This doesn't happen a lot because most officials want to do the right thing the right way, but when it does I would deal with it.

4-35-3

You are where you are at until you get where you are going.;)

Honestly I do not know what I would do. I would hope that I would change the call or go to my partner, but that is only if the partner has a good understanding of how things work (which is not displayed by this type of call). I do know I would not argue about the call on the court, but I just might have a serious discussion in the locker room at halftime or after the game.

Peace

I like "You are where you WERE until you get where you're going"

You are in the air, but you were in the backcourt

The art of diplomacy. I would right then and there asked him what he saw, like another poster suggested. Then I would tell him very politely we both don't need to watch the ball at the same time. If I'm watching the ball up here, you need to be watching the other players down there. You're working way too hard trying to call both. Another catch phrase I'm using more and more, is; "let me live with my calls or no-calls".

We have all had to work with people like this. You have to try to give them some feedback that it's wrong, but you absolutely don't want to come off too abrasive as this could cause a backfire effect. Last, remember these people and don't take anymore assignments with them. I have to know who my partners are before I take a game because of situations exactly like this.

Peace

In most gyms I've been in, admissions and snack sales make it a zero sum game. The extra official is covered by those revenue sources, not a bigger slice out of the budget.

Concession stand sales increase by enought to have a profit of $53 (or whatever the official's fee is) just because there's a third official on the floor?

Not what I meant. Admissions and concessions raise enough funds to pay all officials so it is not a matter of a budgeting decision. In most gyms.

But if they don't have to pay the third official, they'll still raise the same amount of funds and have $53 x 12 home games "extra" in the budget.

It's a budget issue for someone. Whether it's worth the extra $ is a different issue.

Precisely, Bob. That money is budgeted for something as I highly doubt the school is just pocketing that money in a reserve fund somewhere for some mysterious future budget need that hasn't materialized yet. For me, it's easily worth it; but then again, I have a vested interest in the decision.

Not for me.

Saturday morning Freshman boys game years ago. Nobody's yet even awake much, and coaches haven't said one word. I don't recall whether the game was close or not, but I do recall what my co-official said to me before the game: that he had been in that chapter for 7 years and hadn't called a varsity game. He was mad about it.

Sometime in the second half, I'm the new lead covering a fast break. I'm just behind the defender who's a step behind the offensive player. I'm getting in position to judge any contact, but none happens. Halfway through the layup, a whistle blows. I'm thinking, "that's weird; surely a coach didn't say something as it was a clean steal." I look back and my "partner" is right around the free throw line extended on the (now) backcourt and he's signaling a traveling violation. Hint: there was no traveling.

The coach of the team the call went against just looked at me and shook his head. I made a call to the chapter President and Secretary that afternoon. I don't remember what all was discussed, but two things were: no varsity games for this guy, and no more games with me. I don't think he lasted the season. Thank God.

I believe it, too. It's the "get it right" mentality coupled with the judgment of an official without enough experience to actually "get it right." He sees what he thinks is a backcourt call from 45 feet away, doesn't hear his partner whistle it, so he thinks he needs to get it. They generally mean well but don't know any better.