Girls v Boys

Larks

Ok - this could get interesting....

I recently heard the following suggested....

The thought is you can't be good at both girls basketball and boys basketball and that it's likely you will be better officiating one or the other.

Some of us have no choice based on the assignor. Sometimes it's tenure related as to an officials ability to choose just boys basketball. Most assignors in our area will let any official choose just girls generally.

So - there it is.....discuss. Are you able to choose? Would you want to choose? Do you agree with the premise that you can be good at one generally but not both?

rainmaker

I'm going to talk about high school ball, because I suspect the answer is different for college ball. And my answer would be that a person probably can be very good at both hs boys and hs girls, as long as that person doesn't think or try to act as though they're the same. The girls' game and the boys' game are clearly much different -- at least it seems clear to me and I've done a lot of both, but the ref that's willing to work at each, and make the adjustments from one game to the next can certainly do well at both.

What frustrates me is the high level boys ref who troops into the girls' tournament and does a hack job on that game. That person might be the best ref in the state, and deserve the boys' final, but that's no guarantee that he or she will be skilled at the girls' style. But that person certainly COULD be excellent at both, but not without working at both, and really seeing and understanding the differences.

Junker

I think a good official is a good official, no matter which side they work. At the high school level, the mechanics are the same, so I don't see why it would make a great difference if the official on the game works primarily one side or the other. Where I am, we usually have G/B double headers so we don't have the option of choosing which we want to work. In fact we STILL have separate state organizations for each and have to join both to work basketball. Personally, I prefer working the boys. There just seem to be fewer goofy basketball plays because they are bigger and stronger. At the college level, I'm struggling with which way I want to go. I see benefits for me on either side as well as some stumbling blocks on each. I don't have to make that decision yet, but hopefully it will become a bigger issue for me in the near future.

M&M Guy

I believe this does fall under the category of manure-stirring. Way to go. 😉

I do think as you move up to the older levels, the play is different. I believe the saying is, "Girls play horizontal, boys play vertical". Some officials decide they want to do one or the other, so they don't have to adapt to a different game every night. Many people also feel that the boy's game is the "better", or more prestigious game, and the girl's game is harder to call. Therefore, assignors and AD's are more willing to assign those "better" games to the "better" officials. Around our area, most of the schools hire their own officials; we have very few assignors at the HS level. So most of the time, officials work both for a school, unless an official specifically states they will only work boys or girls.

jdw3018

rainmaker wrote
I'm going to talk about high school ball, because I suspect the answer is different for college ball. And my answer would be that a person probably can be very good at both hs boys and hs girls, as long as that person doesn't think or try to act as though they're the same. The girls' game and the boys' game are clearly much different -- at least it seems clear to me and I've done a lot of both, but the ref that's willing to work at each, and make the adjustments from one game to the next can certainly do well at both.

I read your articles on the site about this before the season and wasn't sure I totally agreed, but today can say I agree 100%. In my first season back in a few years, I realize I've already learned more than in the several years I officiated back then. And I readily admit I'm having a much more difficult time with the girls games than the boys.

Last night was my worst two games of the season - B team then A team Jr. High girls. Whew. I was finally starting to get into a flow with about 4 minutes left in the second game! So frustrating!!!

I realize that part of that is the age level, but I've done two HS varsity nights this year with both the girls and boys varsity teams. And both times I've been much more disappointed with my performance in the girls games. I know I will improve with more games, but I'm frustrated with what I see as inconsistent performance on my part. Argh! 😠

rainmaker

M&M Guy wrote
I believe this does fall under the category of manure-stirring. Way to go. 😉

I do think as you move up to the older levels, the play is different. I believe the saying is, "Girls play horizontal, boys play vertical". Some officials decide they want to do one or the other, so they don't have to adapt to a different game every night. Many people also feel that the boy's game is the "better", or more prestigious game, and the girl's game is harder to call. Therefore, assignors and AD's are more willing to assign those "better" games to the "better" officials. Around our area, most of the schools hire their own officials; we have very few assignors at the HS level. So most of the time, officials work both for a school, unless an official specifically states they will only work boys or girls.

I don't think the difference is greater at the older levels, Jim. JH girls' really is the hardest and requires its own set of skills that is much different from JV and V girls, at least the well-played JV and Var.. From JH to Var boys is merely refinement of the same skillset. Girls' games require far more decisions, far more judgment. Is that a foul, or isn't it? Was there advantage or wasn't there? Do we call all that type of travel, or none of them? How early in the game are we going to be able to establish a set of predictable threshholds? And that all goes quadruple for JH girls.

Refs that are required to work both because of the set-up of their leagues or associations, are the most likely to be the best at both, if they (this is starting to sound like Greek chorus) can recognize and master both types of officiating.

Junker

I don't think girls require a different kind of skill, you just have to look at advantage/disadvantage in a different light. To me this is the same as going from a 4A boys game to a 2A boys game. You're not going to be able to call the contact exactly the same way because of the athletic talent of the players.

rainmaker

Junker wrote
I don't think girls require a different kind of skill, you just have to look at advantage/disadvantage in a different light. To me this is the same as going from a 4A boys game to a 2A boys game. You're not going to be able to call the contact exactly the same way because of the athletic talent of the players.

Okay, it's wording then. Looking at A/D in a different light looks to me like a different skill. I think you'll agree with me that you can't just see it as "more of same". Going from girls to boys does require some tweaking of the attention, and the decisions.

Larks

I'll go back to a RainMaker point a couple weeks ago - it's always an adjustment to go from a small school girls game on Thursday to a big school boys game on Friday. I call those two games totally differently.

Is it fair to say girls basketball wants more fouls called? I've heard that but I have also heard girls coaches say "let us play, call the game like you'd call a boys game". Course, that may be the style that coach needs to win that specific night!

Junker

Agreed, but this is something we have to do as officials any time we work a game regardless of gender. You can't walk in and call the JV game exactly as you call the following varsity game. I just don't see this as a gender issue. It has more to do with what level of talent you are used to working.

deecee

Julie -- there is no difference between officiating a boys and a girls game really -- you call fouls based on advantage/disadvantage and a great boys official should also be a great girls official. The fact that they do a hack job reflects more on their character than their ability to officiate.

Junker

deecee wrote
Julie -- there is no difference between officiating a boys and a girls game really -- you call fouls based on advantage/disadvantage and a great boys official should also be a great girls official. The fact that they do a hack job reflects more on their character than their ability to officiate.

I couldn't agree more with this post. Well said.

M&M Guy

deecee wrote
Julie -- there is no difference between officiating a boys and a girls game really -- you call fouls based on advantage/disadvantage and a great boys official should also be a great girls official. The fact that they do a hack job reflects more on their character than their ability to officiate.

Would you also say it works the other way as well - can a great girl's official also be a great boy's official?

Scrapper1

deecee wrote
you call fouls based on advantage/disadvantage and a great boys official should also be a great girls official. The fact that they do a hack job reflects more on their character than their ability to officiate.

Wow, that's an incredibly harsh generalization. I think it more likely that a good boys' official simply doesn't realize that the amount of contact needed to gain an unfair advantage in a girls' game may be significantly less than in a boys' game.

rockyroad

There is no reason why a good official can't be good at both boy's and girl's games at the HS level...in WA, there are some minor rule differences, but that's no big deal. The association I belong to is one group that assigns both sides, so working both is easy - that's not the case elsewhere in the state. In my experience, the ones who perpetuate this myth are the ones who worry that they might lose some games if people came from the "other side"...

At the NCAA level, I don't think it's a good idea. There are some minor rule differences also, but the POE's and the philosophy are very different...the only conference I know that uses the same officials for both sides is the Big Sky, and most of the Sky women's games I have been to have been blood-baths...

The biggest difference I see between the two (boys vs. girls, mens vs. womens) is that the male side of the game requires more of us physically, while the womens side requires more of us mentally...mens games tend to be faster-paced and involve more running (altho some womens games are catching up in that regard as teams score more and run more), and the womens games involve having to make more decisions and think more about whether or not to blow the whistle...sweeping generalizations mind you, but based on my experiences.

rainmaker

Junker wrote
Agreed, but this is something we have to do as officials any time we work a game regardless of gender. You can't walk in and call the JV game exactly as you call the following varsity game. I just don't see this as a gender issue. It has more to do with what level of talent you are used to working.

No, it's really not the same. It's not so much a gender issue in one sense, but girls really do play a different style of game from boys. Yea, there are adjustments from JV to Var boys, but those adjustments are really much less than the adjustments from a good girls game to a good boys game, both varsity. You can see this if you watch college games on TV. Girls just do have more contact, and they play a lot less in the air. There are far more judgments to make -- was that a foul or not? Is that an illegal advantage? Did that bump impede the guard? it's much, much less obvious.

rainmaker

rockyroad wrote
There is no reason why a good official can't be good at both boy's and girl's games at the HS level...in WA, there are some minor rule differences, but that's no big deal. The association I belong to is one group that assigns both sides, so working both is easy - that's not the case elsewhere in the state. In my experience, the ones who perpetuate this myth are the ones who worry that they might lose some games if people came from the "other side"...

At the NCAA level, I don't think it's a good idea. There are some minor rule differences also, but the POE's and the philosophy are very different...the only conference I know that uses the same officials for both sides is the Big Sky, and most of the Sky women's games I have been to have been blood-baths...

The biggest difference I see between the two (boys vs. girls, mens vs. womens) is that the male side of the game requires more of us physically, while the womens side requires more of us mentally...mens games tend to be faster-paced and involve more running (altho some womens games are catching up in that regard as teams score more and run more), and the womens games involve having to make more decisions and think more about whether or not to blow the whistle...sweeping generalizations mind you, but based on my experiences.

which by the way, are quite extensive.

deecee

M&M Guy wrote
Would you also say it works the other way as well - can a great girl's official also be a great boy's official?

maybe i should have covered all my @#$@#$ angles again -- I don't differentiate between boys and girls officials. IF you are a good official it won't take you long -- maybe the first 2 possessions -- to figure out what kind of contact can be passed and what needs to be called. Thats why you ARE A GOOD OFFICIAL. We are not curing disease or poverty--we are using judgement and you either have it or not.

The only real caveat would be someone who has only done boys or girls games their whole careers -- it might take them a game or 2 but nevertheless I think an attribute of a great official is the ability to adjust to the level and style of game you are officiating that day.

tomegun

I live in a state where we do double-headers and I think (HS level) an official should take pride in doing a good job regardless. IMO, it has more to do with doing the right thing for the game. I do men's college and have worked more girls high school games this year so far than I did in the last three combined. I don't think there are any absolutes except working to do the best job when an official accepts an assignment.

rainmaker

deecee wrote
maybe i should have covered all my @#$@#$ angles again

Why is it a problem to cover all your angles? Saying what you mean is a valuable skill, not a pia.

deecee wrote
-- I don't differentiate between boys and girls officials.

Unfortunately, undifferentiation between these officials may lead to not differentiating between the games themselves, which leads to doing a poor job, imho.

deecee wrote
IF you are a good official it won't take you long -- maybe the first 2 possessions -- to figure out what kind of contact can be passed and what needs to be called. Thats why you ARE A GOOD OFFICIAL.

This can be true if you've done the prerequisite study and practice, but it is by no means automatic. A person can be a very bad boys' official, and do a great job in a girls' game if they've never seen that the two are much different.

deecee wrote
We are not curing disease or poverty-

which is relevant, how?

deecee wrote
-we are using judgement and you either have it or not.

I strongly disagree with this. Judgemnt can be learned. I'd bet that at least half of the top college refs have had to learn and re-learn and re-learn again to have judgment and to make the adjustments necessary as they moved up. "Instincts" are nice, but certainly not necessary!

deecee wrote
The only real caveat would be someone who has only done boys or girls games their whole careers -- it might take them a game or 2

I'd venture it would take a lot longer, depending on how long their careers have been.

deecee wrote
but nevertheless I think an attribute of a great official is the ability to adjust to the level and style of game you are officiating that day.

I think that's probably a good generalization, but that greatness is based on experience and study, and can't be learned in one setting.