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-   -   Hand checking versus touching (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/3011-hand-checking-versus-touching.html)

JRutledge Fri Oct 05, 2001 02:22pm
Re: with regard to handchecking - FWIW
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
It is my opinion that the new P.O.E. were written to reduce, not totally eliminate, the unnecessary touching and pushing that may occur during a game.
I think the rule framers know darn well that we are not going to call the "as written" rules, but they realize that the intent of the rulings will seep into play, and play will then become more moderate.
By drawing my own lines, with regard to the P.O.E., I have found that last year's borderline "should-I-or-shouldn't-I" calls are much easier to call. I have also found that I have been automatically calling the "forearm bar", which, when called early, has a tendency to go away for the rest of the game.
After nearly 7 weeks of Michigan girls' hoops, I am still using the guidelines (<i>see another post below</i>) with which I began the season, and the players and coaches have rarely reacted very strongly, or negatively.
Don't feel uncomfortable drawing your own lines to eliminate some of the stuff that makes our jobs hard. We have to remember, that "they" get the same rule books that we get. "They" go to the same rules meetings and "they" hear the same "official interps".
mick
WELL SAID MICK!!! :)

williebfree Sat Oct 06, 2001 03:04pm
Re: with regard to handchecking - FWIW
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
It is my opinion that the new P.O.E. were written to reduce, not totally eliminate, the unnecessary touching and pushing that may occur during a game.
I think the rule framers know darn well that we are not going to call the "as written" rules, but they realize that the intent of the rulings will seep into play, and play will then become more moderate.
By drawing my own lines, with regard to the P.O.E., I have found that last year's borderline "should-I-or-shouldn't-I" calls are much easier to call. I have also found that I have been automatically calling the "forearm bar", which, when called early, has a tendency to go away for the rest of the game.
After nearly 7 weeks of Michigan girls' hoops, I am still using the guidelines (<i>see another post below</i>) with which I began the season, and the players and coaches have rarely reacted very strongly, or negatively.
Don't feel uncomfortable drawing your own lines to eliminate some of the stuff that makes our jobs hard. We have to remember, that "they" get the same rule books that we get. "They" go to the same rules meetings and "they" hear the same "official interps".
mick

Nice post Mick....

May I add, this should not be a "Line in the sand" that you address during the pre-game conference i.e. "We will be watching for handchecking". You just go about your businessof enforcing it from the tip-off and on....

mick Sun Oct 07, 2001 04:35am
Re: Re: with regard to handchecking - FWIW
 
Quote:
Originally posted by williebfree


Nice post Mick....

May I add, this should not be a "Line in the sand" that you address during the pre-game conference i.e. "We will be watching for handchecking". You just go about your businessof enforcing it from the tip-off and on....
willie,
I agree. I don't talk about calls, or rules.... I like to surprise them. Good teams adjust.
There's White in my yard, but not on the roads.
mick

[Edited by mick on Oct 9th, 2001 at 10:35 AM]

Doug Sat Oct 20, 2001 08:39pm

as the season is rapidly approaching, I would like to get one thing crystal clear. From my expierence (which isn't much) I have found that coaches and everyone involved get very upset if you call a very tight game w/ the "touches." Most players have a forearm up on the defender's back, would you as expierenced officials call this?

mick Sat Oct 20, 2001 09:11pm
on the defender's back
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Doug

as the season is rapidly approaching, I would like to get one thing crystal clear. From my expierence (which isn't much) I have found that coaches and everyone involved get very upset if you call a very tight game w/ the "touches." Most players have a forearm up on the defender's back, would you as expierenced officials call this?
Doug,
When a forearm goes up on a defender's back, but it's just resting there, I'll be very attentive for the "back door" pass. If the pass comes in and the forearm straightens to make some space, we're going the other way.
And of course, if the offensive player is merely mugging the defender, I'll also go t'other way.
mick

Doug Sun Oct 21, 2001 08:58am
thanks for the anwsers guys!

Doug

-Keep your eye on the prize

Hartwig2 Sun Oct 21, 2001 08:15pm
Re: with regard to handchecking - FWIW
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
I have also found that I have been automatically calling the "forearm bar", which, when called early, has a tendency to go away for the rest of the game.

Mick, I used to be Doug but now I am Hartwig2, in my games when I call the "forearm bar", even early in the game, the call seems to not stick. I was given the same advice by a older and more expierenced official and I tried to do it at a tournament this summer and it just didn't work. I would call it and the coach would gripe at me as well as parents,specs, and players. where do you draw the line as in what to call and what not to? You had a great post and I would love to do that, but how can I get it to stick?

Doug

BktBallRef Sun Oct 21, 2001 08:41pm
Doug, I think anytime a player uses a forearm in the back, he's going to gain an advantage. I don't allow post defenders to use a forearm in the back, nor do I allow it on the perimeter in lieu of a hand. Most offense players who are fronted, just put their arm between themselves and the defender. Most don't use it until the ball is passed in. But if they do, you just have to call it. It's not particularly popular but you have to do it. Make the right call and taking the heat, knowing you were right.

TH

mick Mon Oct 22, 2001 07:26am
Re: Re: with regard to handchecking - FWIW
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Hartwig2

...in my games when I call the "forearm bar", even early in the game, the call seems to not stick. I was given the same advice by a older and more expierenced official and I tried to do it at a tournament this summer and it just didn't work. I would call it and the coach would gripe at me as well as parents,specs, and players. where do you draw the line as in what to call and what not to? You had a great post and I would love to do that, but how can I get it to stick?

Doug
Doug,
During summer team camps, after having read the POE on the "Touching Fouls", I called the forearm and followed those calls with, "They don't allow the forearm this year."

The coaches and players adapted, and by the end of the camps, the teams were playing with much more finesse. I had encouraged other officials to make those calls based on the information I distributed from the NFHS site, so I wasn't the only "jerk" out there.

I think it is important that you are confident and comfortable in your calls. If you make a call and are apprehensive about the reaction from coaches and players, then you are not showing the "court presence" you need. However you decide to rule on the forearm issue, make sure that it is a ruling in which you believe. And, again, don't forget that the coaches see the same rules.

With regard to being concerned with parents, please realize that parents do not know squat. I know. I used to be one.
mick



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