Penalize Insanity 2 !
 

Friday watching a two man crew work reserve before the Varsity -

4 minutes into the game the head coach team A is at the table screaming at the officials trying to get his attention about the AP arrow being wrong, (It isn't) they ignore him the ball comes up the court on the next possession and he is chewing on the official about blowing the AP arrow - and he needs to stop the game and give them the ball back. OOB underneath the basket and the coach is on the floor and in the officials face as timeout is called by team B. The official stops signs the coach and moves out.
Play goes on and the next tie up this caoch is telling them that the ball goes the other way because they SCREWED the POOCH on that call in first part of the game (everybody in the gym hears) and at evey subsequest tie up he has something to say also.

At half time one of our crew asks - Why haven't they lit this guy up?
Well if you T up a coach in this league you won't get any post season votes.

Guess I am not going to get any votes - 2 minutes into the game I have a block charge on the sideline in front of team A's bench the defender was out of bounds - after I explain to the head coach why it was a block - the Team A assistant " That Call sucked" :eek:
I hope he enjoys his two game suspension from the state of Indiana. :cool:

Why are people not taking care of business?

You don't let criminals be prison guards either.

Are you saying that Indiana suspends coaches for 2 games for any unsportsmanlike T? Or are you saying that you tossed the assistant for this comment and the ejection carries a suspension?

he got tossed -
since he was standing - and he said it right to my face.

An ejection in Indiana carries a one-game suspension penalty.

Way to take care of business. I look at the post-season as something I have very little control over so I don't get all riled up about it. I work a very good regular season schedule and I feel like I get those games because of my ability as an official. I don't want worrying about offending the wrong person creeping in my head and making me know call the game the way it should be called, but that's just me.

I had a much more experienced official tell me once, "look for reasons to not give the technical foul, and be sure when you do that you have exhausted all other options."

I would rather talk a coach out of the technical and allow him the opportunity to "professionally and courteously" address his concerns with us. When he believes that there is a working relationship and that I will listen to him, A LOT of those "technical" problems seem to just go away!

If that means that I am not "taking care of business," then I guess I am one of those officials that would bother you.

While the JV guys may have been able to avoid the problems by addressing the coach early on; reading the OP makes me think it wouldn't have helped much. This guy needed a T early on; probably when he was at the table screaming 4 minutes into the game.

So what part of the OP do you consider to be "professional and courteous"??? I'm thinking that if you let a coach yell "You screwed the pooch" at you, then you are part of the problem rather than part of the solution...if I am misreading what you are saying, then I apologize - but I don't think I am misreading it...

I agree 100% - If Assistant Coach is going to act like a fan he can go sit with them.

He'll have to do it the next game, though, 'cause he isn't watching this one unless it's televised.

You probably would bother me. I have said this before, but it is still good and true.

Donnee Gray who is a final four official and assigner for Maryland JUCO once told us that he can't give an official the courage to call a technical foul, but he can work with an official (to reduce the number) who calls a lot of technical fouls.

If this story went the way the OP is saying, this coach probably should have been tossed.

When I start being overly concerned about my ratings, I'll quit and retire my whistle for good. The game is about the kids, not whether you get any postseason votes. IF you know you are right, whack him, tell him you know you are correct, let him watch the tape and then eat crow. He/she will respect you more the next time, rather than you taking abuse and not having the b@lls to do the right thing!

One of my personal goals for this season is to give no more than three Ts to coaches (I gave seven last season). However, I set that goal becuase I am trying to improve my skills at working and communicating with coaches. I felt part of the problem was I was "too sensitive", did not take the opportunties presented to try to smooth things during a game and did not understand that many times the comments/complaints from a coach are the result of his frustration with his team...he has been on them from the start, they aren't listening and it is simply a matter of guilt be association...I'm on the same court as the Bozo's from his school.

That said...this coach needed whacking real fast.

I think that you're setting a completely artificial goal that has got absolutely nothing to do with good game management, Larry. As officials, we <b>react</b> to the <b>actions</b> of coaches, players, etc. You're going to run into situations sometimes where you could be Sister Theresa and the coach is still gonna go off on you. Those situations could certainly come up more than three times a year also, and if they do, it's usually not because of something that you have done or not done as an official. Yes, there certainly are good game-management techniques that you can use to posibly cut down down on unsporting behavior. <b>No</b>, those techniques sureashell will <b>not</b> eliminate unsporting behavior. Some coaches and players need <b>you</b> to show them when to stop, and a technical foul sometimes is the <b>only</b> way to get that point across to them.

Calling technical fouls fouls does <b>not</b> mean that you're failing as an official, contrary to what some testicularly-challenged officials might believe. It simply means that someone is acting in an unsporting fashion, and you, as an official, are not going to allow that to continue. No more, no less. The technical foul penalty is in the rule book for a reason, and that reason is to deter and stop unsporting behavior.

I agree with you, but it is at least a measurable goal and not simply "Do a better job working with coaches"....how do you measure "better"? If a coach starts "getting under my collar" I remember my goal and try to look for a way to calm the situation...if not, I do what needs to be done.

BTW, if this last Saturday is an indication as to how the coaches are going to act the rest of the season I will past three Ts by the end of the week...one coach asked me to "Call and GD foul", but he didn't appreciate the one I called :D...Partner and I both tried calming down the coach in the very next game...middle of the 4th of a blowout my partner calls a foul at L, coach yells "For Pete's sake, let them play" and slams his clipboard against the back of the chair...figured if I had to stay for the rest of that slop, so did he...but he was going to do it sitting down.

No, I personally don't think that the number of "T"s that you have to call in a season is in any way at all a good measure of any official's ability to control/manage a game. It's more of a measure of how many idiot coaches/players that you happen to run into in your games that year. Some of these clowns make it a part of their coaching/playing stategy to see if they can gain an extra edge by working the officials from the git-go. Not allowing them to gain that edge doesn't mean that you're automatically a failure at managing a game properly imo. That was my point.

I know that you weren't saying anything like that really, but I also know that some officials posting here do have that kind of philosophy.

Rocky and Tome,

Nowhere did I say that the original poster had said the coach was professional and courteous, I said as long as the coach is, then I am more than willing to work with them. Sometimes it IS our job to get a coach to calm down and focus on the game. It may not be a part we necessarily LIKE, but it comes with the territory. In the original post, it would seem this coach needed some "technical" guidance, but what was done early in the game that allowed it to get out of hand? Could good game management have prevented this? I don't know. I merely pointed out my take on "technical fouls," and how I prefer to handle coaches.

Interesting enough, that has been my ding the past 3-4 years, because I WILL give a technical foul if a coach is not professional and courteous. In fact, it is one reason our local board decided to "hold me back" from getting Varsity games. Oh well . . . It forced me to become a better communicator, and my working relationships with coaches have never been better.

Jessie I guess it is one from the state and one from the school Sorry

Big Ddog - If I can talk to a coach I will - in fact I did - The head coach and I had no problem, however this moroon is the assistant coach who is standing up loking me in the eye and making a comment of a somewhat negative manner directly to me.
At any level I work - Munchkins through NCAA - that type of action is going to get an assistant Whacked for sure and as you can see at the varsity level and up they are probably going to get tossed. (I have to admit that history made that decision in this case.)

How this guy made it through the Jv game is beyond me standing at the table screaming about a call is an automatic Whack - he is out of the box or off the bench how ever your state does it and is expressing displeasure with a call - he continues as he holds the ball and delays the game while he gives you some more of his already depleted brain matter before giving you the ball back.

Where do you think talking is going to make things better. There is a time to talkk and a time to WHACK - When it is time get it out and use it - It will make your life so much better in the long run.
By the way if you start penalizing the insantity on a consistatnt basis it will go away!

I didn't say it was a GOOD measure. :D

Totally agree on the Assistant Coaches point! I don't listen to Assistant Coaches. They can coach, period. I communicate with the Head Coach. If the Asst. was complaining, then you are right. Tweet! Technical Foul. Coach, you have lost your coaching box privileges. Shoot 'em, and lets move on.

Best wishes for the rest of the season though. I hope none of us has to give any more technical fouls for the remainder of the year. :)- Riiiiggghhhtttt!!

It shouldn't be a measure at all!

If you have the cahones to come on here and say that a coach said something like, "Call a GD foul" then you should have used that intestinal fortitude and formed the letter T with your hands.
My goal is to apply the correct penalty to every situation for the rest of the season. I think that is more realistic. Matter of fact.....Whack! Technical foul on LarryS for unsportsmanlike officiating of unsportsmanlike acts. :D I'm adding that one to my season total.

I did whack him...but forget it...not worth the effort to keep going here...

I apologize, you did whack him (I read your post again).

So how do you gauge when to give the 3 T's are warranted and which is more severe which would warrant a T or not. If someone diserves a T and it should be given. I would do a pulse of myself if i'm giving out too many T's. if all is well then it's not me. Whack Him!

T on Tomegun for having a quick trigger. :)

That is one of the points I am trying to make.
My gooal is to give not more than 3 "T's" this year.
What if the first three coaches you see all call you a flamin a$$ H@LE
are you done for the year?

Trying to call less "T's" is an admirable goal I agree but you have to deal with the situation that is in front of you on ALL CALLS and make the appropriate Call for the situation.

That is what this job is about the other 99% of the calls you make why should it be different for a "T"?????

Up until about 10 years ago I would use the number of T's I called as one measure of the "sucess" of my season. If I only called one or two, I thought I had had a good season...ran into a local coach at a three-day training for teachers one summer and spent quite a bit of time talking/visiting with him. At lunch on the last day, he asked me flat-out why I took so much sh!t from coaches, including him...I was shocked, and told him my thinking. He told me that wasn't the way the other coaches saw it, or saw me...Spent quite a bit of time over the next few months rethinking my position...gave quite a few T's over the next two seasons. Haven't had any problems since then...now, if I tell a coach to "Stop", they usually stop - partly because of my communication skills, and partly because they know what will come next. So far the only T this year was a brand new coach...and when she kept going after my partner after being warned and got her T, the assistant - who has been there for a few years - could clearly be heard saying "I told you he would stick you."

It's just another call that needs to be made when warranted...call it and move on.

I always like hearing that from player to player or whatever. It means I'm being consistent, and that they're adjusting to my game, which is what's supposed to happen!

Each official has a slightly differant personality. Each coach has a differant personality. What works for one official might not work for another official. What works for one official with one coach might not work for the same official with a differant coach. (It's just basic human relations)

That being said, here is what the (Indiana) IHSAA Officials Handbook says concerning unsporting conduct of coaches:

"The basic criterion inherent in athletic competition and written into the contest rules in all sports is guaranteed fair play, that no player or team may gain an unfair advantage over an opponent. Unfortunately there are a few coaches who include the berating and carping of officials in their game strategy. There are also a few coaches who become frustrated during the course of the game and must place the fault somewhere.

Officials who permit coaches to "perform" are allowing potentially unhealthy situations to develop. To wait until "the last straw" to assess a penalty that was "earned" early on in a contest is not good procedure. Ninety-eight percent of the unsportsmanlike reports filed with the IHSAA indicate that when a penalty is assessed with the first infraction, the contest proceeds with no further problems."

If a player travels, call traveling. If a coach deserves a T, give him a T. It says more about the coach than it does about the official.

I guess I don't understand setting a goal like that. If they're there, call em. If they're not, don"t. What if you've already given out 3 and a coach throws a towel on the floor, will you give him extra rope so you don't go over your goal? What if in your last game of this season, you've only given out 1 all year? Do you still try to meet your goal? You can work on you communication and still rack up a number of T's.

My experience is that some officials are eager to T coaches (or toss 'em in baseball), and they think that their manhood is at stake if they don't get the coach at the earliest opportunity (and I've never met a female official who's aggressive in this way).

Other officials seem to think that penalizing coaches is intrinsically bad, or at best a necessary evil. This attitude leads them to aim to minimize their T's, as if that were a good goal.

I guess I understand the idea of using "benchmarks" to measure progress in one area or another - so, for instance, thinking that 3 T's on coaches in a season marked good game management. But I think that erroneously assumes that all coaches are approximately the same.

Some coaches are good and some are bad. I agree with the attitude of going to a game site to do my job. If a coach is going to interfere with my capacity to do my job, then I will apply the appropriate penalty. I want neither to look for nor to avoid the opportunity to penalize a coach.

I have always felt that if a situation can be avoided with proper game management prior to it deteriorating, then that is a good thing. Hence, while I am not shy about whacking whomever needs it, I will try to have a civil conversation and use the stop sign prior to pulling the trigger.

A mentor of mine in my first year always said to

1. Lock (Stop SIgn)
2. Load (Whistle in Mouth)
3. Fire (Whack):cool:

before Ting up someone from the darkside (coach).

But never give the little b**T*rds an inch:D

Either I am not explaining myself well or some are not reading carefully...or a mixture of the two.

The arbitrary number is easy for me to remember. If a coach starts in on us during a game, it reminds me to communicate. Maybe we are ingnoring questions or not really answering them, only giving quick and "canned" responses. Those are necessary during the action, but when there is time am I really trying to difuse the situation or just letting it fester. Believe me, if a coach insist on being an idiot I will stick him/her.

I totally understand the problems with having a slow trigger and do not want to go to the other extreme...I don't want coaches, fellow officials or (more importantly) the assignment secretary to look at me and think "He refuses to communicate well...he'd rather stick you and move on."

A good example (even though it was a player) was last Friday night. Late in the first quarter I called a foul on #10 in white who immediately let out an almost primal yell. I gave him a stare and told him to "cool it" because I need to work on keeping thing under control without always resorting to the whistle. I noticed an odd look from him but kept moving. A few minutes later, my partner called a foul on the same kid and he did the same thing...only this time he was not facing the calling official. When my partner tagged him with his third foul just before the half, there was another yell. I was standing near the coach and asked "What's with him?" Coach replied that the kid had been doing that since grade school...it was a release mechanism he used to keep from getting frustrated. I quick trigger would have saddled that kid with a T and put him in foul trouble early on...but he should probably learn to do that internally and not out loud. :)

We agree.

I work LOTS of baseball. In 2004 I had 12 ejections. In 2005 I had 2 ejections. Does that mean I'm six times better at communication in 2005?

Probably not, I had 6 ejections in 2006. Two during a beanball war, a college player calling me a homer, you know, the usual.

I am working at being the kinder and gentler Rich: http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=30112

However, I would've tossed this assistant.

Larry - maybe a better goal would be to not assess any unneeded technical fouls (remember the phrase - will this make the game better?). Those T's where, after you give them, you wish you could have them back. Of course, the best way for that to work is to not get down on yourself if you call one, but to analyze why you called the technical and see what (if anything) you could have done to avoid it. If a player/coach/howler monkey deserves a T, give it.

I'd be weary about any sort of numerical limit. Case in point - I had seven technical fouls in the course of two games last Thursday. I don't feel bad about a single one of them.

I used to get this a lot by my 4th year doing intramurals.

"Jeez, we have that dextering Dexter reffing tonight. Keep your dextering mouths shut - he'll T you up."

The smart teams got it.

Jmo, but I honestly feel that you just do what you think is gonna work best for that particular time in that particular game. There's no magic instructional manual that teaches you that you <b>should</b> do <b>this</b> in <b>this</b> particular situation- <b>always</b>. An identical act might mean a quiet warning in one game, but it also might mean an immediate "T" in another game with no warning. You just go with whatever feels right to you at that time. And then you don't second-guess yourself.

You know what I'm talking about, Rich....obviously

It is just taking care of business at the moment - certain things will go down differently on different nights - at different moments in the same game.

Example: Last night Girls HSV first quarter 1:50 to play red 23 losses the ball to white 40 who holds the ball above her head - red 23 steps forward toward white 23 - jumps into and swings arm to slap the ball away gets some arm, blow the whistle on the foul pase and watch the action - (on previous foul calls red 23 has whined) - Red 23 looks right at me and says.." you have got to be kidding me!" WHACK! Fouls four and five!
I kind of felt bad for a second - but she just asked me for it - commit an obvious foul then whine about it right to my face and it is your fourth in last 6 minutes! - It did make my life miserable the rest of the night since she was the only ball handler the red team had.

Again, you had to be there, but normally I walk away from a comment like that and go about the business of reporting the foul.

Of course you may want to whack the coach on general principles for leaving a player in the game with 3 fouls in the first quarter :)

My only regrets have been NOT whacking someone who needs it. A good example (from football) is the coach last season who came onto the field to argue a spearing/disqualification call we made on one of his star players. I gave him a 15-yard USC penalty, but I should've thrown a second flag and tossed him a few seconds later. Didn't want to look like I had it out for him, though, so I didn't. He deserved it and I didn't pull the trigger when I should've.

What'd he do to earn the second USC? (Or, I should say, that should've gotten him the second USC.)

I think these stories are good, but when it comes to high school players and coaches I would probably be on the side of a technical foul. I think I have called four so far or four in the last week. Which ever one is the lowest :D

He stopped at me on the way to his injured player (the spearer) and laid into me for ejecting him (he worked so hard in the gym, blah, blah, blah). I warned him to go to his injured player, and he didn't, so he got flagged.

He kept in and didn't move towards his player, which annoyed me more than anything, to be honest. I told him to get off the field and he told me we'd never work there again. That's where I should've ended his night.

I lost that conference (it's only one game a season, easily replaced), but I blame that on the assignor who would rather stay on the good side of coaches and ADs rather than back the officials. Quite a shame, since he's an official himself. It had nothing to do with me not tossing him. It probably had more to do with me refusing to speak with the athletic director the following Monday, telling him my report to the state was all that needed to be said.

Why? Quick technicals rarely make the game better. I will let the players exhibit a little frustration as long as they drop it right away. It's the second shot or the persistence or the repeat offense that gets whacked.

I'm certainly not gunshy. Like I aid in the last post, I've lost a conference or two because I called USC fouls in football or technicals in basketball. Of course, that has as much to do with our assigning system as anything.

That was one of my seven. I called a foul, and the fouler didn't like the call. He didn't draw a T for shouting displeasure with the foul - he got T'd up because he kept screaming while running around and around.

Rich & Mark - yes you had to be there - but if she had not expressed displeasure on the first and second fouls I might not have shot her down
In the fifteen dates I have worked this season JV, Varsity, Prep, and college, I have given two technicals and an ejection both of which you have read about here - they were a result of prior bad acts that had not been dealt with. Personally I do not plan to leave a mess for others to clean up.

If I am going to lose a conference for issuing a T I probably don't want to be working that conference anyway.
If you give them when they are earned your assignors and commissioners will (should) back you up! If not then why do you want to be in that conference where you are not supported.

Giving T's
 

Here's a thought, It's in the collage mechanic's book, we set the tempo and not the players or coaches. A well placed and called T on someone like this let everyone in the gym know what you will not tolerate. We have to be professional, so do they. Also, if you are new, you should have your response already committed to memory so when this happens that it dosen't catch you by surprise

so now on top of supervising 10 hormonal teenagers on the floor, 2 or 3 aging hippies at the table and at least 2 or 3 howler monkeys on each bench, we also have to administer arts and crafts? I think i"m switching to volleyball...

How many bulletins has Nichols sent out so far this season with this in the e-mail? :p

I definately agree with him, but sometimes I feel that he should just tattoo it on his forehead.

Or move to another state. That would eliminate the hippies :D