Violation or Absolutely Nothing???
 

Timeout by Team A. First horn, followed by second horn. Team A still huddled at bench. Official whistles, still no movement from Team A. Puts ball down and begins slowly counting 5 seconds. Count is on three when B1 runs to the ball (stepping out of bounds), coach for Team B yells to not touch and get back on the court (player never touches the ball). Official is on 4 with the count when Team A finally gets to the ball. A1 is unable to throw-in the ball and official whistles a 5 second violation (actually more like 7 or 8 seconds realistically at this point).

Team A coach argues a violation was committed when B1 stepped out of bounds since it was a live ball. Any validity to the argument?

You don't have a violation, but you could have a delay of game warning. I think I'm more likely to ignore B1 unless he touches the ball.

My initial thought was Delay of Game as well, even though I am thinking the rules provide for a violation.

In this particular situation, they simply went with the 5 second violation and gave the ball to Team B.

Yes - probably ignore B's action and call the 5 seconds......

With situation like this, we want to remind ourselves to discuss the topic of returning the the floor after 1st horn to the coaches during pre-game. Had the coaches been reminded during pre-game, you have every right to use the "resumption of play" procedure to penalize the team that take their sweet *** time to return to the floor. I don't feel bad for coaches who try to take advantage of the game.

Yes - probably ignore B's action and call the 5 seconds......

With situation like this, we want to remind ourselves to discuss the topic of returning the the floor after 1st horn to the coaches during pre-game. Had both coaches been warned during pre-game, you have every right to use the "resumption of play" procedure to penalize the team that take their sweet *** time to return to the floor. I don't feel bad for coaches who try to take advantage of the game.

If you wanted to split hairs, B1 violated by leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. Team A could have been called for a delay of game prior to B1 stepping out also. Which was covered as a POE this year. You have a bag full of tricks you could validate on this one. Delay of game would have gotten you out of trouble as it was the initial violation. Just my opinion.

While it would be a courtesy to remind the coaches of this in pre-game, it is not required. The RPP is a tool we can use when the situation calls for it. No need to warn first. They'll get the message the first time you use it.

Delay of game is not a violation. The new delay warning is for not having the court ready following a timeout. When they do not break the huddle after the second horn, the RPP is used to handle that situation. No delay of game by team A here.

Agreed, Smitty. The only delay of game you can call here is on B1 for crossing the OOB plane during a throwin. I'd probably ignore this, as it's not really affecting the play if he doesn't touch the ball.

I stand corrected. Valid point Smitty, Thanks

Besides, no true advantage is gained while stepping off the court since A isn't even on the court yet. This is just not an appropriate time to call a delay of game warning on B!

9-2-11 . . . The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

PENALTIES: (Art. 11)
1. The first violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane by an opponent(s) of the thrower shall result in a team warning for delay being given (one delay warning per team per game). The warning does not result in the loss of the opportunity to move along the end line when and if applicable.
2. The second or additional violations will result in a technical foul assessed to the offending team. See 10-1-10 Penalty.

PENALTY: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation or technical foul occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot.


It is in fact a violation for the opponent to break the throw-in boundary-line plane. The result is a team warning for delay or a technical foul if the team had been given a previous warning of any kind.
When the result is only a warning the game is resumed with a new throw-in as after any other violation.

If I were the administering official, I would enforce the rule and call the violation on B1 for breaking the throw-in plane and assess either the team warning for delay or a team technical foul as appropriate.

To fail to make this call unfairly penalizes Team A. The actions are Team A were legal at this time due to the RPP.

Hey rook, once you've put the ball on the floor you are flying by the book. Throw out any notions of what's appropriate now, you've already crossed that line.

Nevada got it right.

As for what's appropriate...all that you need to avoid this mess is for an official to walk over to coach A and tell him to get his team ready on the first horn. When the second horn sounds step into the huddle and ask if he wants another time out. That will get his attention.

You do have a violation....a throwin plane violation. The penalty includes the delay of game warning.

(Edit: Just read Nevada's thourough post to the same effect)

Not so sure I agree. The throwin plane violation exists solely to prevent the defender from interfering with the ability of the thrower to make the throwin. Would anyone even consider calling the warning if a defender 50 feet down the sideline waived his arms across the line...even if it were by a full arm length? I didn't think so.

With no thrower, what possible purpose does calling a plane violation serve? More than likely B is worried that it is their ball and they're supposed to be there. Before putting the ball down, make absolutely sure that the defending team knows it is not their ball.

I've already changed my mind once today. I'm a guy, and that's my limit. Pro's for calling the delay of game: it's the rule. Team B just bailed out Team A, and it's their own fault. If A1 comes out and sees B1 behind the line reaching for the ball, he's less likely to go grab it. B1 just being there can be confusing and cause a delay of game.
Con's for calling it: B1 is likely just confused.
D@mmit. I just did it again.

Agree. Give a big point in the direction the ball is going and a big verbal "A ball" at the same time too And if a defender still tries to wander OOB, a quiet little "Get your azz back on the court" from the administering official might also be the right way to go. If you you've done something like Dan recommended, you've gone the extra mile already with A to get them out of the huddle. If they want to still ignore you, it's on them. By rule, Nevada is right. But all you're really doing is bailing team A out because the plane violation by the defense had absolutely no bearing at all on the play.

I continually find myself siding more and more with Jurassic Referee's opinions on rules interpretations. I may need to seek professional counseling.

__________________________

Dude, You're already past that stage!:eek:

Well past....

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/straight-jacket.gif

Calling a violation could make you a popular official
 

So.... (Nevada, particularly)

If you have already issued the first, and only, warning, now you're going to assess Team B with a Technical foul???!!!

That should make Team A pretty happy ... especially when they are still standing in their huddle.

In my opinion, this is the time for some preventive officiating. Straighten Team B out before they touch the ball ... if I'm on a very slow three (after the second horn and I've waited for a few seconds before beginning my count) and Team A hasn't even broke their huddle yet, I may just call the 5-second violation and give the ball to Team B.

If I'm not quick witted enough to stop Team B before they touch the ball, then I would say that Team B has just saved Team A's butt. I would stop the throw-in, correct the error by stopping Team B and if Team A has still not made it to the throw-in spot, put the ball down and begin the count again.

I'm surely not going to penalize Team B for getting onto the court first.

As you said this could potentially be a big call. If that is going to be the case, then my preference is to handle it by the book. I do not believe that it is my role to prevent Team B from doing anything that would bail out Team A. That is the job of their coach. My job is to be a neutral observer and penalize the rules infractions that are committed. I would be very apprehensive about doing what you advocate. In my opinion that crosses the line into very dangerous territory. You could be accused of aiding Team B.

What if Team A did this on purpose in an attempt to draw the T? For example, Team B already has a delay of game warning and Team A knows that. Team A trails by two points and has a throw-in from the sideline adjacent to their backcourt with only .1 remaining on the clock. Obviously, they can't catch and shoot, so the crafty coach takes a time-out and then rather than go for the low-percentage tap play, he opts utilize the RRP by holding his team near the bench following the second horn and risk the 5 second violation in an attempt to confuse Team B and draw them into breaking the plane (or even picking up the ball) once the official places it on the floor. If Team B fell for this what would you do?

You would likely find me ROFLMAO.... I think your scenario is a bit of a stretch.

As an official you have a responsibility to administer the throw-in to the correct team. You would enforce that responsibility if both teams were ready. You would enforce that responsibility if only one team was ready. I tend to feel that you have administered the ball to Team A when you placed it on the floor and it is Team A that I am penalizing by beginning my count - the same as if they were standing there with the ball in their hands.

I just don't think I would allow Team B to interrupt that impending penalty if I could prevent it.

Crossing the OOB boundary because of confusion is not the same as sticking your hand across the plane during a throw-in.

When I'm standing there with the ball, waiting to administer to Red, and White steps out to make the throw-in, I don't call a delay violation or a technical foul - I inform White of their error and get the correct team, Red, for the throw-in. No penalty. I imagine that you would do the same in that situation. Setting the ball down for a particular team seems quite similar to me.

My comment for what is in red: Why are you only penalizing Team A and preventing Team B from doing something that would result in them being penalized? Are you friends with the coach of Team B? ;) See how your choices could be construed?

My comment for what is in blue: There is properly no penalty for this because no rule is being broken. The ball is still dead while you are holding it in your hands. After you set the ball down on the floor, you have made it live and have a completely different situation. At least that's how it seems to me. :)