Yabut, all this occured during a TO. So, don't the players have the right to be on the court during a TO? In fact, if it was a 30-sec. TO, the 5 players in the game <B>have</B> to be up and on the court. So 10-4-2 wouldn't apply, right?

And, you said this isn't a fight, by rule. So what <B>do</B> we charge the players with?

Use rule 10-4-4 then. They're out of their "bench area" as defined in rule 1-13-3, aren't they? The OP said that they were more than halfway across the court. Same difference.

How about between the officials then? :D

M&M,
I understand the case that you are making and do believe that it has merit. However, what carries more weight for me is that this rule was clearly put in to prevent the bench personnel from escalating a volatile situation.

The idea is that if the number of people involved can be limited by means of a harsh deterrent (flagrant T just for leaving the bench area), then the game officials and the game management staff have a better chance of controlling the incident. (You probably agree with that.)
The message that the NFHS wants to get across to the teams is DON'T LEAVE THE BENCH when there is a problem elsewhere.

Now if you are unconvinced by that argument, then I have another one. Let me concede that the altercation in the stands is not a “fight” by the NFHS definition and that rule 4-18 does not apply.
I believe that the letter of the law would still justify disqualifications in this situation under 10-4-4. This is because the NFHS added "or when a fight may break out" to 10-4-4 in 2004-05 and commented:

PLAYER(S) EJECTED FOR LEAVING BENCH IF FIGHT MAY OCCUR (10-4-4): A bench player will now be ejected if he or she leaves the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out. Previously there was no coverage in the rules book when bench personnel left the bench when two or more players confronted one another but no fight occurred. These volatile situations can easily degenerate into a fight or worse by the presence of team members from the bench. The penalty is now the same as for leaving the bench during a fight, ejection.

Now is this a situation in which a fight MAY break out? I think that one can reasonably conclude that it is. Thus whether or not a “fight” is actually occurring is not the relevant issue, and the disqualifications are justified by the book

Would I enforce those penalties? It's very difficult to say in an internet forum. I would have to be in the situation and make the decision that I believed was correct.
That is what BDR did, and it seems that he handled it well. I can't say for sure because I wasn't there, but I'm not going to second guess his judgment. However, when he comes on this forum and specifically asks about what the rule says to do, I will give him my opinion in the hope that it helps him to be a better and more prepared official. (For example, knowing that even if he had decided that four ejections were warranted and called four flagrant Ts, only 2 FTs would be awarded to the opponents is a crucial bit of rules information that can be gained from discussions such as this.) Afterall, the main purpose of what we write here is to gain a better understanding of how to officiate a basketball game.

Except we're talking about 10-4-4(c), the TO exception.

Ok, I know, we can then get into the area allowed for players during a TO, and we might be able to argue if they were outside that as well. Or we could argue if the players that were already more than halfway across the court might've been the 5 current players coming out of the huddle after the TO. We don't have all the information as to where the players were before this started, or how it actually transpired. But I guess what I'm saying is if we have the situation where the coaches (and officials) are keeping the players out of the stands, and they listen, I don't see a downside to not penalizing them. What if this happened during play, perhaps a dead ball, and you can see the players stand up, but the coaches are telling them to get back? What if a couple of players have one foot in-bounds before they're yanked back? Without having all the appropriate information (and, of course, the tape), I'm not sure calling all those T's makes the game better. Getting the knuckleheads in the stands outta there certainly makes it better. Maybe even make them eat more hot dogs on the way out?...

Again, your cite above mentions "players" being involved in the altercation. That's not the case in the original pst, as M&M pointed out.

Fighting rules cover players and teammembers, not parents in the stands.

Yeah, and now these situations which are other than a fight ARE covered. All that comment did was give ONE example of an altercation that previously had no coverage under the rule. Now not only that ONE situation, but many others are covered.

Um, yeah, that's exactly what I said. You had 10 team members out of their bench area. It doesn't really matter if they were "players" or not.

POE 4 in the 2003-04 rulebook said "Teams should remain in the bench area during 60- and 30-second time-outs".

That's cool. Now find me an applicable cite that covers a fight that <b>isn't</b> between opponents.

First off, the OP said 10 players were on the floor. We don't know if all 10 were outside the bench area. And, where is that bench area? In 1-13-3 it lists a rather large area on the floor.

Btw, I assume if I were to have A shoot 20 FT's, I would have a <B>real</B> grumpy assignor to deal with. ;)

Bowling is a much more civilized sport. When was the last time you heard of a fight breaking out at a bowling tournament?

1) We sureasheck do know that the 10 were outside the bench area. The bench area only extends onto the court as far as the closest FT lane line to their bench. The OP said that they were more than half-way across the court.

2) Yup, anybody handing out 20FT's in that situation would probably make a grumpy assignor even more grumpy. I'm just arguing rules-wise.

3) Bowling is great. Gets the kids off the streets and into the alleys.

Bowling is a much more civilized sport. When was the last time you heard of a fight breaking out at a bowling tournament?[/QUOTE]




Sorry, but we just had a fight at our bowling alley last Saturday. Not real sure if the fight was over bowling or beer but it still took place in the bowling alley. :eek:

Back to the topic at hand.

I am the new guy and do not have my rules book with me so I can not quote specific areas of the rule book. I believe that it says in there that we as officials of the game have the authority to make dicisions on situations that may not be specifically covered in the rule book.

Taking that into consideration and that this is a JV game, I think we would have to take into consideration here what do we do to make sure the kids are safe and that the integrity to the game is upheld.

I believe this is one situation that you would have to deffinately be there to determine what each of us would do in this case but I can deffinately see where what the original poster did would work and still be within the rules. I can also see where completely stopping the game would be within the rules.

I am some what new to basketball but have been officiating baseball/softball for many years at many different levels and use to be a state UIC for one organization, Far to often I would see my guys enforcing the steed fast written rule instead of the intent of the rule.

let the flames begin. :o

Yabut, we still don't know how many. The OP said they stopped players who were more than halfway across the floor. They also said there were 10 players on the floor. Who was where? We can assume, but we don't know without watching it when it shows up on YouTube.

The part that muddied the issue for me was the fact it occured during a TO. If it had been a live ball situation, I don't think I could disagree with your rules cites. Yes, players need to be within the "bench area" during a TO. But what if a coach tells the team, "Get your heads out of your a$$es!!", and that's it? Now they start to walk out on the floor because they're done with the TO. Do I wait for them to step out of that bench area and start whacking? Probably not. I also don't think this is an obvious fight situation either. So given all the mud in the water, I'm willing to give bigdogrunnin the benefit of the doubt. Of course, I'm not his grumpy old assignor, so he will have to live with what he/she says.

You know, I now have that queasy feeling in my stomach, just like after eating a few hot dogs. Thanks alot.

I don't have to as I am conceding that this altercation isn't a fight; it is merely a situation "when a fight may break out." Therefore, it is covered by 10-4-5.


I don't agree that that is the correct procedure. For team members violating 10-4-5, but who do NOT themselves actually fight, the penalty is a MAXIMUM of 2 FTs to the opponents. I already cited that ruling in this thread.

Ask Allen Iverson. :eek:

1) How do you figure it's covered by R10-4-4?:confused: There's no mention of a "fight" anywhere in R10-4-4. It doesn't matter where in the rulebook that you find the word "fight" anyway. A " fight" is still defined in R4-18 as <b>always</b> being between two <b>opponents</b>. If players do come on the floor because a "fight may break out", then that "fight" has to be between </b>opponents</b>, not fans.

2) I'm referencing team members leaving the <b>"bench area"</b> in R10-4-4. There's no mention of a "fight" in that article. You're referencing R10-4-5, a completely <b>different</b> article. R10-4-4 and 10-4-5 have different penalties. There's no mention of just one technical foul penalty being administered anywhere in R10-4-4PENALTY.