team control during freethrow?
 

Does a team have team control during a freethrow? And if they do, when does that control start? Thanks in advance.

Team control I do believe starts at the moment the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower. And yes there is team control (Rule 4 Sec. 13 Art 6)

Rule 4-12. Especially note arts 5 and 6.

AACCHH!!! You beat me. But my post is more didactic.

i saw your rules quote...and i followed your lead....threw one of my own in there

Soooooooo....is there team control if you put the ball at the <b>disposal</b> of the free-throw shooter but he hasn't picked it up yet?

If a teammate of the FT shooter commits a foul <b>before</b> the FT shooter picks up the ball that is at his disposal, is it a team control foul and the FT is cancelled?

If a teammate of the the FT shooter commits a foul <b>after</b> the FT shooter picks up the ball, is it a team control foul and the FT is cancelled?

Inquiring minds need to know!

Why would the FT be cancelled?

The 06-07 officials quiz on referee.com is saying that there is not team control during a freethrow. Quest. #11. There is team control during:
A) a throw in
B)while a pass from A1 to A2 is in flight
C)a dribble by A1
D)a free throw while the shooter is holding the ball
E)a jump ball

I chose b,c, and d. However, they are saying b and c are the only answers. Is this a mistake or am I interpreting the question wrong?

REFEREE has been known to be wrong- many times.:)

Who said it was?:confused:

Nobody has anwered any questions yet.

Is that NFHS or NCAA?:confused:

Do you have an NFHS cite?

the answer key or solutions that referee provides does not have (D) as one of the answers

Well, then REFEREE is wrong. Again.

REFEREE is not an official rules source and never has been.

NCAA page BR-79

4-12-1
A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. There is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper, or during an interrupted dribble.


During a FT, if a player holding a live ball inbounds? You tell me, ctp5. :)

So, referee is wrong and there is in fact team control during a FT while the shooter is holding the ball. Thank you. I just expected a little more than that from a magazine like referee.

Why did you?

Yabut, if the free thrower isn't holding a live ball, has never held a live ball, his teammates haven't held a live ball, but that live ball is at his disposal ,is theer or is there not team control?

You tell me, anybody.:)

Does the word disposal appear in the rule?

4-12-1
A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. There is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper, or during an interrupted dribble.

A player is in control when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

A team is in control when a player of the team is in control.

Therefore, if the ball is merely ay the disposal of the freethrower and not held or dribbled by him/her.........no team control.

You beat me to it BBR

1) No

2) Common foul because the ball is live. Blow whistle, report foul, shoot free throws with no one in the spaces, give ball to other team for throw-in at closest spot to the foul. (If last free throw is made then they can move along the end line). (If the other team is in the bonus then shoot those free throws with players on the line)

3)Team Control Foul, FT is cancelled. If ball is in the air when foul is committed then it counts if it is made.

Am I right? Am I, Am I :p

Except a team is still in control, even though a player isn't, during passing activity, an interrupted dribble, or a loose ball.

You can't establish team control until you establish player control though, can you?

Not as far as I know. I was simply pointing out that you don't have to have player control to have team control. My post was really not germane to this thread at all. :D

Well, #3 isn't.

I ain't saying on the others.:p

Thanks for the help.:)

This question was left open in the thread about rolling the ball. Is it stated anywhere that team control starts only with player control? Team A inbounds the ball, and immediately, without any player catching the ball, advances up the court with a series of touch passes. By definition passing includes players batting or rolling the ball to each other. Also by definition, as stated here earlier, team control includes passing activity. So why would a foul in this situation not be a team control foul?

case book play 4-12-6 referencing throw-ins says <i>"The throw-in ends when A2 touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A3 <B>gains</b> control.</i> That means that neither player or team control has been established because either is needed to have a backcourt violation as per 9-8.

But this doesn't answer the original question. In this particular situation, the point is that the count doesn't start until team control is gained. The point is not how team control is gained. This is a situation that one might never see, but the series of batted passes would seem to constitute team control, whether an individual player ever caught the ball first or not.

OK here is my thought on a foul while the ball is at the disposal of A1 but A1 has not picked up the ball. I don't care if there actually is or is not team control. Most likely it would be an Intentional foul. Players are either lined up or not lined up. If there is a foul, then no one is making a play on the ball. You probably have players pushing and/or shoving. Thus Intentional Foul. A1 would shoot the original free throw. The shoot the free throws for the Intentional foul. Ball OOB at the spot of the foul.:D

Nfhs...
 

Rule 6-1-2c: ...the ball becomes live when: On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Therefore, while the ball is in the officials hand(s) up until the point the free thrower has the ball at his/her disposal, the ball is dead. Contact warranting a whistle during this period would be during a "dead ball" thus a technical foul (4-19-5c).

How is this handled?

I am well aware that the ball is 'live' when it is at the disposal of the free thrower. Whether the thrower has the ball or the ball is placed on the floor. I am just thinking that if during this time frame, then when a player commits a foul it would be Intentional in nature. So the question of 'Team Control' does not even enter into the equation.

The only thing that cancels a FT is a violation by Team A. Fouls do not cancel FTs.

Player control is established when a player is dribbling or holding a live ball inbounds. Team control is established at the same time. Batting the ball does not establish team or player control.

During a dead ball, which includes the time before the FT shooter holds the ball, any contact should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. SInce the ball is dead, the foul would be technical, not personal.

They are discussing a situation in which the FT shooter doesn't accept the ball or is not there due to the RPP and the ball is placed on the floor at the FT line. That is the other way to put it at the disposal of the FT shooter and make the ball live.

So, if A2 fouls B3 during this time what are you going to do? ;)

8-1-2 reads ...placed at the disposal of the thrower OR placed on the floor...

I've scanned the rulebook but I haven't found anywhere that states the ball is live solely because RPP is being utilized. 6-1-2 is pretty specific about when a ball becomes live.

Does RPP equate to disposal?

Live ball. Intentional (Personal) Foul!!!!

Let's just think about the situation. If you are using RPP for either throw-in or free throw, then when do you start the 5 sec. or 10 sec. count? Once you start the count, then the ball is live. Thus, ball is placed on the floor (at the disposal). Are you starting the count?

I'm looking for definitive status (live/dead) in writing (rulebook or casebook). 6-1-2 states specifcally ball becomes live when at the disposal of the thrower. 8-1-2 lists placing ball at disposal and placing ball on the floor as 2 separate acts.

I would agree with you if 8-1-2 said placed at the disposal of the thrower (including placing the ball on the floor).

Does this help? :)

PLACING AT DISPOSAL
8.1.1 SITUATION A: A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure? RULING: Yes. On free throws, the word “disposal,” is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free-throw line and begin the count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free-thrower's disposal. However, in this situation, the ball becomes live when it is caught by the free thrower. (4-4-7b)

If Team B is not ready, then the ball is bounced to A1. Once A1 has the ball it is 'at the disposal'. Team A is not ready, then place the ball on the floor. Once ball is on the floor then it is 'at the disposal'.
I also believe page 59 in case book, Case play 8.1.1 explains it.

If the ball hasn't left the FT shooter's hands on the shot when a teammate commits the foul, the ball is dead immediately and it's a player control foul. The FT shooter then gets replacement FT(s) with no one on the lanes. If the last FT is made, the opponents get an endline throw-in as after any made FT. If the last FT is missed, the opponents get a spot throw-in at the closest spot to where the team control foul occurred.

As soon as the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, any foul committed by a teammate before the FT is in the air is a team control foul.

Case book play 6.7SitB.

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