Call it or not??
 

Last night in Junior High game, A1 controls rebound and stands still waiting for everyone else to clear out. B2 comes around the backside of A1 and slaps the arm instead of the ball. Close game and getting more physical as time went on, I called foul. I noticed the coach's face on the way down the court and he didn't look happy about the call. He did not say anything though. Should I have let it go?

If it was a foul, call it, close game or not. If you don't, what happens the next time??

Don't worry about what the coach thinks.
Perhaps he was upset with his player for committing a silly foul 80 feet from the opponent's basket. You don't know.
The only thing that you should concern yourself with was if the contact placed the player with the ball at a disadvantage and needed to be called.

Definately a foul. Possible intentional if he wasnt making a play for the ball.

I'd call this at the JH level, but then again I don't work JH except one weekend tournament a year. In a HS game I'd lay off to get them up and down the court. The ball didn't come loose, it didn't gain anyone anything, why stop the game?

Ummm, you would pass on an obvious foul like that? That could cause problems. I agree if it is a light tap, but a slap????

Why is it an obvious foul if no advantage was gained? By rule, a necessary aspect for a foul here is an advantage.

I think you need to read this and think about you options:

SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.

ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.:D

hey I refu2 nice of you to highlight the text that helps your argument, but if you are really looking for the correct answer you should also note that in the next part of the sentence is says and I quote "which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements". That is what Snaqwells was pointing out and it is a valid point....

The leagues I work in don't want this "nickel dime" nickel dime stuff called. It didn't affect anything so why stop play? If the ball gets loose I might call it but that's about the only time. If the coach doesn't like it, I'll just assure him he'll get the same treatment on the other side and we'll move on. If he wants to make a bigger issue of it, I'll just address that if it comes about.

His point may be valid in a sence, but the last time I checked, a slap on the arm is a foul. If not, then we need to move to the football forum.

I agree with you but we need to consider this portion of the OP's post: ...and getting more physical as time went on...

Maybe the atmosphere of the game called for a "nickle/dime" call to help clean things up.

Good point.That comes with experience sometimes....<b>when</b> to call something like this.

I agree with this. If it's getting a little physical it might be a good one to take, but I'd rather get something else like a push on the block or during a rebound.

And that falls under the category of "whatever works", as long as it does work. Can't knock the end result imo.

All I am saying is that a slap on the arm (overlooked for whatever reason) could end up being a problem on the other end of the floor. In some cases, preventive officiating is actually calling those types of fouls, especially with these kids today and their quick tempers

I agree, it could become a problem, but in a lot of leagues, the players and coaches know they have to play through that kind of contact.

Who is to say the slap on the arm did not create an advantage?

Consider this. B1 gets the rebound, and has the ball protected. Players from both teams begin moving up court. B1 will now start to look for the outlet pass. A1 comes from behind, takes a swipe at the ball, gets all arm, and moves up court. B1 now hesitates because of the contact, takes an extra pivot to make sure he is clear. The swipe by A1 allowed team A to get back on defense, perhaps stopping a cherry picker lay up. In my mind, an advantage was gained by team A to be able to set up on defense. A lot of ground can be made up on a basketball court in a 1/2 second. Was the ball knocked loose? No. Was possession lost? No. But there are other advantages that can be gained. Just something to think about.

My question is what rule says a "slap on the arm is a foul." If you think there's advantage, then call a foul. But if there's no advantage, then you generally don't have a foul. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they're situational exceptions.

As Junker noted, you probably need to call it at the JH level, especially if you sense the players are testing the limits, but I'd say there are times when it could be let go even at this level.

My point is it's not an "obvious foul", as written. It's definitely not "borderline intentional" unless you think he was aiming for the arm.

Yup, and if you judge there is an advantage (it only needs to be clear to you), then call it. I'm not saying this can't be a foul; only that as written in the OP, it might not be.

The official with the responsibility to make the call, same as always.

There can be many different philosophies put into play in this situation.

If the game was physical and getting more so, you might want to call a loud slap like that, to keep things from escalating.

If it's loud and out in the open, this might just fall under the good old call the obvious.

Not that I agree, but if there is one of those 7-1/10-2 team foul counts going, and that slap was by the team with 1 or 2 you might go get it.

Lower levels, I'm more likely to get it than varsity or above.

Judgment, judgment and more judgment.
 

Foul calls are clearly judgment calls. No one here can tell if this call was a good or bad call by reading something on a discussion board. In my opinion if the "slap" did not make the player lose the ball, knock them off balance, affect what they would have normally been able to do or was not an attempt to foul the player near the end of the game, I would likely pass on this. Touching someone is not a foul. And what is considered a "slap" is also a judgment call. Even for me at the JH level I would likely pass on this, but kids at this level cannot handle a lot of contact either. This is after all why we get paid the big bucks and why some officials are deemed JH officials and others move up the ranks. All we are doing here is giving our opinions. You have to decide what works for you in the end.

Peace

You might want to examine why the game got to the point of being physical and feeling the need to call this foul if no advantage was gained by the defense

Here's the deal. It's already been mention. If you choose to let this foul go, guaranteed, late in the game. Watch the player who just got foul. On the way up the court, he/she retaliates. Now, you blast the retaliation. That's not right, either. I agree that it doesn't need to be called every single time you see it. But when it's loud like that, and the intensity has risen in the game, something you need to be aware of, nobody going to complain about you blasting that one.

I do want to mention something about the look on the coaches face. You indicated that his resentment made you feel uncomfortable. You better get use to that because it's going to happen I lot more in your career. Best to not even look at the coach. Focus on the table, report your foul and take the ball back out. The only thing you need to look at the coach for is timeouts and if they have a question.

I had one coach who I had given an Tech for complaining too much earlier in the game, really gave me a dirty look after a quick steal by his team in a very close playoff game. I blew a double dribble on his player who had a open layup to take the lead. He looked at me as if I totally blew the call. At this particular point in the game, I doubted myself because of his look. The reason I'm mentioning this is because this is the coaches job to try and get into your head. If successful, they will have you second guessing yourself. After the game, I asked the person at the table if they saw the call I made. They said, yes they did and it was the right call, hell yea, he double dribble. So I learned not to even look at the coach after I make a call. I mean his look was such that I could have gave him another technical for staring me down.

Don't shoot the messenger....

Really, Chuck, I'm surprised you can even type this. Could have gave?? Now that's too awful for words!!

frank22,
From here it looked like the coach agreed with the call, but didn't like his player gettin' beat like that. ;)

10-6-1: A player shall not: hold, push, charge, trip; nor impede the progress of an opponent by extending an arm, shoulder, hip, or knee, or by bending the body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics. He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

It is not too much of a stretch for a slap to be considered a rough tactic, is it?

The line in red is in pretty simple language, is it not? I'm all for the principal of advantage/disadvantage, but there are limits: A1 and B1 are fighting for position in the lane. As A2 takes a shot, B1 shoves A1 out of bounds. the shot is good, so there is no rebound. What advantage did B1 gain? This is still a foul.

This tells me who is responsible for the contact. It's not a foul without some sort of advantage. Now, let me add this, if the slap is hard enough to be considered "rough tactics," I'll call it. With a slap, though, it can be relatively light and still come out pretty loud.

With your play, I've got an advantage gained. If A1 gets shoved out of bounds, then he starts off the ensuing play at a disadvantage. As far as I'm concerned, displacement is almost always an advantage.

This isn't an a/d issue, it's a game control issue. Trying to reach in and smack the ball loose in this situation is just poor defense. It also starts people's tempers flaring. If it happens more than once or twice, and the coaches aren't hollering at their kids to knock it off, I think you need to call it just to clean it up. It's really no different than getting an early handcheck or post foul; you're just showing them where the boundaries are. You'll rarely have to call this twice in a game.

How can you call a game based strictly on whether the player gained some advantage?

How many times to you see a player fouled on the arm on a shot after the release of the ball? These get called all the time. Where is the advantage to the defender? The ball is already in the air. The contact has absolutely nothing to do with the path of the ball and doesn't affect its flight.
Are you saying you never call this type of foul?

I think you'd have a lot of PO'd coaches if you went strictly on whether there was an advantage gained and not by the rules as stated.

I have no idea if you are addressing me but I will bite.

Easy, the rules say so. The rules even say contact can be severe and not a foul. If you do not believe me, look up incidental contact in the rulebook and see for yourself. ;)

In my opinion you are not using very good logic. A player is supposed to land without being contacted illegally while they are an airborne shooter. If a defender cannot defend a shot legally without making contact with a shooter who is airborne or a player that has reached the floor, then that would be a foul if the contact did not allow the player normal movement. Just because the ball is gone out of the shooter's hand, it does not mean you cannot put a shooter at a disadvantage.

I can only speak for me, I do not care what coaches think. If you are worried about how mad a coach gets and you follow the rules, then you have bigger problems than whether you call a foul or not. Once again, this is just my opinion.

Peace

Kind of contradicts your stance on that blocked shot, lots of contact after the block, no-call philosophy you have argued for in the past.;)

How is that a contradiction? Most block shots are going to involve contact. You cannot call all contact a foul. I have clearly said in the past that a clean block shot that the contact should in most cases be considered incidental. Too many times I see a foul called on body contact when the defender got to the ball first and jumped straight up or was just a bigger and stronger player. Also if you have read what I have said in the past, this is expected to be called at the levels I work both HS and college. I was at a D1 camp this summer and a D1 official called a foul on a clean block and significant contact after the block shot and was told the official "That was a play thru." Obviously I did not say anything about this play but the clinician who is also a long time D1 official made it clear what should be called and why. He gave the exact same explanation as I have here in the past and right now.

I think you are trying to apply one situation with a completely different situation. Also just because there is contact on a shooter does not mean there was a foul. Sometime shooters are out of control and calling a foul on a defender even without the shot being blocked would be completely wrong to do. Remember, you and I do not work in the same places or with the same people. Remember that "regional thing" you talk about. ;)

Peace

Maybe I should hit the archieve...as I remember it, you were on record that even significant contact post block...even knocking a player to the floor...should be considered incidental. Yet here you are saying contact on the arm that hinders a player's normal landing could be a foul.

No contradiction huh?:rolleyes:

The operative word is "block." There is a huge difference between a block and not a block.

Peace

Yeah if you knock him off balance on the way down. But I'm talking about minor contact on the arm after the release. Turn on any NCAA game on ESPN and see that called all the time.

Far be it from me to question the way anybody else calls a game, that's for sure. I'm just trying to broaden my perspective. However, who's to say that the incidental foul you won't call, couldn't have an adverse affect on the gameplay? Just because you don't see the advantage gained? I thought that's why the rules are there in the first place.

Let me put it this way. In the real world we apply philosophies that you can agree or disagree with. Multiple fouls are in the rulebook and most officials I know claim they would never call one right or wrong. Incidental contact is clearly in the rulebook and states that all contact is not a foul and contact can be severe and still not be a foul. Then in that same definition they talk about not affecting normal offensive and defensive movement. To me a block is always going to have contact. Not every defender is Patrick Ewing and can jump up and swat the ball into the cheap seats. Most blocks are going to involve some contact. Now I work football and I equate this philosophy I talked about in basketball the same way we apply holding calls. No where in the rules does it say anything about point of attack and other factors such as strong legs and if a defender is making an effort to get away from the block. But every competent football official I know uses that philosophy and if they did not there would be a holding almost every single play a football game. As I have said time and time again, there is a reason some officials get more opportunities because they apply certain philosophies and a reason others are watching the big games instead of getting hired.

Peace

Yeah, I forgot how a block ends air borne shooter status in the rules.:rolleyes:

I did not say that a block ends anything.

This is also what the rules say under 4-27-2 says, “Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort to reach a loose ball or contact which may result when opponents are in an equally favorable position to perform normal defensive and offensive movements, should not be considered illegal even though the contact may be severe.”

Now from my point of view an airborne shooter almost never going to have many shots blocked without some contact. So I guess in your point of view if a shooter is blocked cleanly with the ball and then part of the follow through by the defender pushes the arm of the airborne shooter, there should be a foul no matter what because the shooter is still airborne.

Maybe that works in the girl’s game, but that does not work very well in the boy's game.

Peace

Advantage/disadvantage. I don't care if it's a slap or not. If it's an unnecessary game interrupter, I'm letting it go. I haven't worked a JH game in some time, though, so maybe at that level....

How about defending your contradiction without the spin or the sneaky little insults...huh?

When was the last boys state semi-final or final you did? Care to guess mine?

I clearly answered your question, if you do not want to accept my answer or the reasoning that is OK with me. Not only did I answer your question, I showed you the rules and gave you examples that could apply and what I was told as well as others at a very high level camp. Also I did not throw out an insult towards you in any way, I just stating a fact. This might be something that is acceptable in a girl's game where much less contact for fouls is acceptable from what I have seen at the HS to college ranks. This is the reason many officials choose or are expected to choose. If you think that was directed towards you, then maybe you are a little sensitive about your resume.

I worked a tournament on Friday and Saturday after Thanksgiving and 3 of the 4 games I worked had 7 footers on the floor. In 2 of the games there were 7 footers on both teams and multiple Division 1 talent on the floor. There were many blocks with contact by these players and if we would have called these fouls, we would have been run off the court. Of course there were a couple of times where there was a cry for a foul, but the coaches quickly backed off when they realized the same was being called when their 7 footer was given the same kind of call (or no call) with their defender.


Let me address this. What is the significance of working a Semi-final? In my state there is no such special assignment and the officials that work what is called "working downstate" or going to the State Tournament, working the Semi-Final is just another assignment at the State Tournament. All State Final officials that work in the state tournament are given the same consideration as it relates to Power Points or prestige. As a matter of fact is common for first time State Final official to work a Semi-Final in our state.

I will also say this. I have not worked that far in the tournament. Also we do not work a Regional one year and the next year work the State Finals. Your system if likely very different than the system I work under and probably many other people that are reading this. If we use your logic, Teddy Valentine (I could give other examples) is not the official you are because he never worked a HS varsity game like you or I have worked. I think he has been on national TV a lot more than you or I have.

Peace

Typical...You said that contact after a block is incidental, correct?

Yet you said that contact after the shot that hinders a normal landing can be a foul earlier in this thread, correct?

You denied that you were not saying that a blocked shot ends the airborne shooter protection, yet you completely contradict yourself with those two statements.

An airborne shooter is an airborne shooter, contact that hinders normal movement is a foul and that is the same if the shot is released clean or the shot was blocked...that is what the rulebook says, you know the rule you quoted.:rolleyes:

And you threw out the girls ref snipe, so you get what you dish out...so rare that when backed into the corner by his BS, Rut pulls out his "resume" of all the 7 footers he officiates...lame, very lame...and it's lame in the great state of Illinois too.;)

Why is this so difficult to understand?

I treat a blocked shot differently than a defender that completely whiffs on a blocked shot and runs over shooter. I also treat a shooter that is flying through the lane differently than a defender flying at a straight jump shot. There are a lot of factors that can play a role. I guess if an airborne shooter makes contact with a defender that has established LGP there always has to be a PC foul as well?

To you they are the same thing, to me they are not. The definition of an airborne shooter is just that, a definition. It does not mean that under any circumstance is a foul called on because someone touched the airborne shooter. If the rulebook says all contact is not a foul, not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.

I made the "girl's" comment because that is an observation I have made and others have made on and off this site. Obviously I struck a nerve with you that to most officials I know would never get upset or think of this as a personal attack. I had this very conversation with one of my partners at a Thanksgiving Tournament (who also had the 7 footers in our games) because he works Women's college and I work Men's college. We talked openly about the differences and the expectations of the sides as it relates to contact and the "letting them play" mentality. The partner that I am talking about also was the person that made the comparison first and we elaborated on those differences.

BTW, the two of the 7 footers were from other states. One of them is from the only Prep school in Illinois and all were going to Division 1 programs when they graduate. If I wanted to use this as a resume I would direct you to the web site and tell you where this was located. I have not done that because the only relevance this has to the conversation is what was expected of the officials that worked this tournament and other levels of ball. Just this week alone I worked with a 30 year veteran who worked multiple state finals, two college officials, one of them worked Division 1 in the past and the other worked a State Final a couple of years ago and we had several plays like I have described in this thread when a block occurred and nothing was called by anyone. So since state finals mean something to you, why did they pass on these plays? Were they wrong in their judgment too? Did they not apply the rule properly?

Peace