Earlier on this board the flag patch was said to belong on the right sleeve of our jersey, elsewhere I have heard it could go on the back (top middle) like Major League Baseball. I haven't found it any where in the books. whaddya think?

Hey wait a minute....let's just turn our black stripes red and have blue with white stars on the collar and sleeve cuffs. tee-hee (JK)

I think it varies by state.

Here in OH we have to put it on the left shoulder.

I saw on the West Virgina site that if one official does it, the whole crew has to.

In NC, we are also putting it on the left sleeve.

A Google search using displaying the flag gets many
hits. Here are some:

http://www.usflag.org/flag.etiquette.html

The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:

The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.

The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.

The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use.

Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard

The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.

The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.

The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.

The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.

When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.

More detail here:

http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/flagcode.html

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to
the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a
living country and is itself considered a living thing.
Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Michigan flag - right sleeve
 

NOTICE REGARDING AMERICAN FLAG PATCH
ON TEAM & OFFICIALS UNIFORMS

National Federation rules allow for an American flag patch, not to exceed 2 by 3 inches, to be worn on a uniform jersey, provided the patch does not interfere with the visibility of the number of on the jersey. A 2 by 3 inch American flag patch may also be worn on a swimming suit or tennis uniform.

According to the MHSAA Officials Guidebook (page 13), it is permitted for officials to affix an American flag patch on their uniforms as long as it is placed on the right shirtsleeve of the uniform. It is recommended that the flag patch not exceed 2 by 3 inches, the same size restriction as player uniforms

I am considering a flag pin for my volleyball and track shirts, but I cannot find any...

I don't see myself putting a flag patch on my bball or lacrosse stripes. I wear the mesh type and I don't think the material is strong enough to support it without puckering or looking goofy.

from the IHSA:

The flag patch may be worn if it is afixed on the left side above the heart.

Just got that bit of new today from my officials assocation president.

Brian,
I don't wear Jewelry when I ref.
mick

Mike,

The IHSA sent out a statement saying that we should only where a flag, not different than the ones the players can where, on our right shoulder. We are not suppose to wear them on our pocket or any other place. But that would be the most logical place in my opinion, considering that we have patches on both arms.

Peace

Flags
 

I have asked around AZ since my original post and it seems that a lot of guys have the "let's get on with life" attitude. It kind of makes me feel like a goofball for planning to put one on my stripes. My partner would wear one too, if I do though, so at least we'd match. It's almost like basketball season is too far ahead to be thinking about it and everyone is thinking this will have all worn off one month from now. It is kind of discouraging but then if it's not cool then I guess you can color me dorky. To me its not just "YEAH I'm proud to be an American look at how patriotic I can be". It's more of a way to pay respects to the victims and show that we are not forgetting, and to set the example to the players, coaches, etc. that there will always be more impotant things. I also got "official" word that we wear it on our left sleeve. what I don't understand is the statement Brian Watson found on not wearing it on athletic uniforms, but I'm probably just having a brain fart. I'm going to interpret that to mean that a jersey should not LOOK like a flag.---Kinda like I joked in the first post about my jersey. :)
I'm gonna shut up now and get my farting brain some rest, seeing as it is only 2:30 in the morning my time.

Heres a link
 

Heres a link to the announcement on the IHSA website :)
http://www.ihsa.org/announce/010926.htm

WIAA Officials...
 

Here is the response to my request for an answer from our (WISCONSIN) HS ASSociation.... :D


In replay to your questions regarding the wearing of the American flag.

Yes officials can wear the American flag. We are requiring if you choose to wear it that it be sewn on the left sleeve about 3 to 4 inches above the elbow. It can be no larger then 2" x 3".

Re: WIAA Officials...
 

You guys all wear long sleeve shirts, yo?

Re: Re: WIAA Officials...
 

My guess is that the WIAA was responding based on the fact that the present season is football season.

We simply placed our 2" below the left shoulder seam.

I hope we can find a way to avoid any political statements at all. If the rule is, "If one ref wears them, the whole crew has to" where does that leave the Jehovah's Witness, or the Communist Party member, or anyone else who feels uncomfortable wearing an American flag? If some refs do and some don't there is an inevitable comparison that could be drawn, and it doesn;t have anything to do with basketball. I don't think the politics of the world belong on the basketball floor, or the soccer field, or where ever we are officiating.

Juulie, I understand your point and the purpose of my reply is not to agree or disagree with you, but only further the discussion.

Here are some points you may find interesting: the custom of starting sporting events with the singing of our National Anthem began in WWII at baseball games. While it is not a requirement of MLB, it is done at all games, and players stand at attention with their caps off, regardless of their personal beliefs.

The addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance were not in the original version, and the adoption of the motto "In God We Trust" and the addition of that motto to our currency and coins happened during the Eisenhower administration.

There are American citizens who object to all of this in exercising their freedoms, but they do it anyway for whatever reason (one reason having to do with currency is that there is really no alternative - everyone has to use money).

During times of war, some civil liberties are reduced or suspended. That's a fact. Whether this is good or bad is another discussion. My point is that sometimes a person makes a choice about putting their allegiance to their country during a time of war ahead of their personal beliefs. This is because of the need to participate in whatever way in the defense of their country to avoid obliteration. If you want to talk offline about my personal beliefs as to what situation our country is in now, and what we should do about it, I would be glad to have that discussion with you if I see you next weekend at The Hoop in Beaverton.

Now, how all this translates into being required to wear a flag patch on a ref shirt is not clear. ;)

One last comment on your remark about members of the Communist Party not liking wearing our flag - although I am a firm believer in separation of church and state and the civil rights of the individual, I'm not sure I support extending those rights to people whose stated goal is the overthrow of the system that establishes and protects those rights.

OK - having said that - let's get back to basketball stuff.




[Edited by Mark Padgett on Sep 30th, 2001 at 02:00 PM]

Our association is requiring the flag be worn on the back of the uniform one inch below the neck line. We are ordering two flag patches for each membe at the board's cost. This came as result of a vote at our last meeting.

I was not aware that being a Jehovah's Witness precludes
one from wearing what amounts to a symbol of unity, if
they are then fine. But I can't for the life of me
understand why a member of the Communist Party would *not*
want to wear the flag, any more than a member of the
Democratic, Republican, Right to Life party or the Flat
Earth society for that matter. No offense meant, just
wondering.

I guess I don't agree or disagree with any of this -- well, that's disingenuous, but which I disagree with and which I don't isn't the point. And that's the point I am trying to make. What difference does it make to my basketball whether I am patriotic or not and how I choose to express that? Part of our freedom here in a democratic state is the freedom to not be forced to express a certain political view, if we don't want to. If politics has nothing to do with basketball -- I'm talking national politics, not association politics!! -- it shouldn't be forced into basketball. God help us if Walter's board has much influence nationally. Where can that kind of proscription lead, but to trouble???

Julie, I think at this sensitive time in our nation it does make a point. While some may be a passifist or Non God and Country people or whatever divergent view you have. You will be the only member of the crew without the American flag on his/her uniform. As such a person, you could end up as a target for millitant patriots and thus put yourself in a position for even more verbal abuse then you are used to. Wear the flag and remember it stands for a UNITED States and we are all in this thing together. We wear the flag to remeber the fallen in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. We wear the flag to remember those now flying over Afganastan who will fight and die for the cause. We wear the flag because we have the right to disagree on where and how to wear the flag.

Sigh. We're at war. My 17 yr old son wants to go off and
kill people. When I ask God for help (which I do not make
a habit of doing, BTW) I will not be asking Him to prevent
Walter's association from installing a fascist govt. My 2
cents: if you don't have a problem wearing your state or
association patch then you probably should not have a
problem wearing the US flag on your stripes. But as they
say, we might disagree but I will defend your right to
sound like a fool, err, I mean to hold your opinion.

I have nothing ales to add.

My buddy Juulie asks what politics has to do with basketball. During normal times, practically nothing. During a war, politics has to do with everything. Make no mistake about it, we are at war.

Yes, it's true that during times of war, some civil liberties are suppressed in interests of national security, so that we can win the war and then continue with those hard-fought civil liberties. The operative words there are "hard-fought."

OK, having said that, do I really believe that requiring basketball officials to wear a flag patch furthers our national security interests? Of course not. But that's not the point. I believe the point is that it's important for the governing officials association to demonstrate that the playing of the game is put into perspective. What I mean is that - while we are playing a game - we have not forgotten there is something going on that is infinitely more important and that we recognize that. To my mind, that is the significance of wearing the flag patch - to indicate that I have not lost sight of the real news. I think this is what an association is trying to convey.

After all, it's just a game.

OK, having said that, do I really believe that requiring basketball officials to wear a flag patch furthers our national security interests? Of course not. But that's not the point. I believe the point is that it's important for the governing officials association to demonstrate that the playing of the game is put into perspective. What I mean is that - while we are playing a game - we have not forgotten there is something going on that is infinitely more important and that we recognize that. To my mind, that is the significance of wearing the flag patch - to indicate that I have not lost sight of the real news. I think this is what an association is trying to convey.

After all, it's just a game.


What Mark writes above is exactly what my organization is trying to convey. This is only a game and that there is a lot more going on out there than basketball. The flag vendor we are purchasing the flags from is donating 100% of the profits from the sales to the relief fund for the victims of September 11, 2001. Our board felt that the flag stands for a lot of different things to a lot of different people. However, a vote of membership present at the time showed unanimous support for the relief effort and for the purchase. For the majority of members that I personally spoke to, the flag was a way of honoring the victims and heroes of that day as well as showing support for our nation.

Walter, you said your board was requiring the flags to be worn?? So if an official chooses not to, does that official lose games? Pay a fine? What is the "punishment" for not wearing the flag, and - as Juulie is asking - should there even BE a punishment for not wearing the flag?

dj

Interesting question. We put the issue to a vote of the membership and no one objected but we did have some no shows at the meeting. What will happen, in actuality, probably nothing. The board is purchasing the flags (2 per person) and is asking that the flags be sewn on the uniform 1" below the neckline. We've also been told that a number of schools are also taking this approach. Hopefully, we won't have to deal with it. In reality, if someone chooses not to wear the flag, so be it. I know there will be some of you out there that think that uniforms should be uniform. If someone chooses not to wear the flag, they need to know that their partner may be wearing a flag.

Also what I meant by requiring had to do with the placement of the flag. The vote determined that the board would wear the patch. The requirement dealt with where it would be sewn.

here's a new take - maybe
 

I don't think there's anyone out there who doesn't agree that an association can adopt and enforce a dress code for it's members while those members are representing that association at a game. Let me ask you this - what is the penalty for wearing white shoes, or shorts, or a collared shirt instead of a v-neck (for example) or an association patch? Now, you may think that requiring a flag patch is different. But, is it really?

You may argue that dress code requirements are based on looking "professional" (whatever that is). A big part of that is being dressed the same as your partner(s) and other association members. If your association decides that adding a flag patch increases your appearance of professionalism (OK, that's a stretch, but what constitutes "professionalism" is totally subjective), then they are basing their code on that same principle - the principle of dressing to represent the association in the manner in which that association has determined it wants to be represented. That's their right, and the majority rules.

Again, you may make a case that their rules violate your constitutional right to choose not to participate in what you perceive as a political statement (or for whatever reason, perhaps religious).

To that I say - have fun at the Supreme Court.

I have been reading the posts about US flags on our officiating uniforms. The first thing that we all should be doing is to read United States Code Title 36, also known as the Flag Code, specically Chapter 10, Section 176(j).

This section states that "no part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

Since, athletic teams and officiating organizations are not patriotic organizations, we should not be wearing flag patches on our officiationg uniforms nor should athletic teams be wearing flag patches on their uniforms.

This has nothing about being patriotic or unpatriotic. I just do not think that it is appropriate to wear the flag in such a manner and I think that Flag Code backs up my belief.

I've read the same thing. However, it's happening everywhere. MLB on the back of their jerseys, NCAA & NFL football teams with a flag on their helmet, and professional officials displaying the flag on their uniform.

It just seems to me that displaying the flag on a uniform simply expresses support for each other, our country and the men and women who have died during these tragic events. As an American, I feel I have as much right to diisplay the flag as somone else does to burn it. As long as it's done with dignity and respect, there's nothing improper about it. To try to read political or legal implications into to it is simply overbearing.

That's just my opinion. No need to agree or disagree.

What do you think about this? (ILLINOIS SOLUTION)
 

Illinois has given us an option to buy wrist bands with the colors or a flag (I have not gotten the actual form myself yet) on it to where for basketball games. So we are not instructed to have a flag on our uniform or the colors, but on our wrist.

Says who? Is the American Legion a patriotic organization? Of course. What about the Boy Scouts? Yes, pledging to do your duty to your country is part of the Scout oath. What about Congress? They take an oath to uphold the Constitution. In my eyes, that makes them a patriotic organization, so members of Congress can affix flag patches to their suits. OK, that suit part may be stretching it.

The point is - during a time of war (and this is as much a war as the "Korean police action" was, that is, no formal declaration), I believe any organization can justifiably add to its charter the desire to express patriotism and make that part of its mission.

If, according to a strict interpretation of the flag code, affixing a US flag patch to your work clothing to express your patriotism is wrong, then the flag code should be changed. BTW - do you really think anyone is going to enforce it these days?

We wear the flag to remeber the fallen in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. We wear the flag to remember those now flying over Afganastan who will fight and die for the cause. We wear the flag because we have the right to disagree on where and how to wear the flag. [/B][/QUOTE]

THAT'S exactly what I'm sayin'

As an outsider
 

As one of the few non-Americans here, I must admit that I find tis issue somehwat amusing (no offence intended).

I hate to admit that I was employed for several years by McDonald's. I distinctly remember that we had a lengthy (around 4 pages) procedure for how to store, fold, fly and maintain the Stars&Stripes.

As an Australian this is quite weird - we have (to the best of my knowledge) no formalised ethos for how to act towards the Australian flag. If you set the flag on fire in Sydney, people would be understandably upset - but I doubt you would go to gaol. In the same way, Australian flags are flown in storms, at night, and often in a poor condition.

I am not attempting to say that the patrioism shown by Americans towards their flag is wrong, it is just totally foreign (no pun intended) to most Australians.

As far as putting the flag on referees uniforms, I have two points to make:

1. Is refereeing a "patriotic" activity? Probably not. Is refereeing <b>not</b> a "patriotic" activity? Probably not. Is the flag allowed to be put on referees uniforms - sure.

2. Who cares? If you are opposed to having the flag on your uniform, don't. If you want to show it, put it on. I think either each local association or the central governing body of American referees, or even the Federal government should issue an edict stating that any offcial can put the flag on their uniform if they so wish, and then state where and how big the flag should be. It should also say that there will be no penalty to any official that decides for any reason, not to have their flag on their uniform.

But hey, that's just the humble opinion of a FEEBLE referee from down-under.

Peace.

Oz I think we have a different attitude for our flag because of all the crap we had to go through to "get it".

It truly is a symbol of our freedom and reminds all of us daily of our fathers, grandfathers, and stories of great grandfathers who laced 'em up and defended our right to fly it. To us, by showing respect to the flag, we can give our respects to all those who died making sure we could fly it.

This is not to say the way other countries act toward their flag is wrong, we just put more emphasis on it.

Having said that, as most of us know legal codes, generally, reflect he prevailing social mores and attitudes of the day. I am positive that when the Flag Code was written, it would have appalled people to think of putting the flag on their clothing (or cars, or overpasses). But, this was also the same time when men wore top hats and gloves to work, women never wore pants, and you absolutely could not wear white after labor day.

Times have changed, and the law, by definition, has not. What was once thought to be blasphemes to the flag is now considered "right". I am sure the flag code does not address the car flags I see everywhere, or flags hanging from overpasses, but this does not make it wrong. The definition of patriotism has changed, for the better I think, and I now think it is proper for everyone to respectfully wear the flag on their clothes, or not to. To display it on their property, cars, or businesses, or not to.


Remember, <u>that</u> is why we get to fly it. If I work with someone who is not wearing it, will I get upset, no. Maybe they can't sew, maybe (like me) they don't think the material on their shirt is strong enough for it. There are a million reason not to, and quite frankly it is none of my business that you don't. As long as being an American is in your heart, that is all that matters.

PS - I am now sending an email to my Senators asking them to amend the Flag Code, looks like it is time to update it.

Ah, how I yearn for those days of yore. ;)

I don't think attaching a patch makes it part of the uniform. I read this entire flag code last week and felt that it meant that you shouldn't make the actual uniform resemble the flag---we shouldn't change our black stripes to red and add a field of blue with stars on our backs.

The NF has already approved, in past years, the application of a 2"x3" flag patch on player's uniforms. No one has made an issue of that. Why should it be any different now when the motivation and desire to show allegiance are greater than it has been in decades.



[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 9th, 2001 at 07:01 PM]

Where in the code is the term "patriotic organizations"
defined? The only other use of the word "patriotic"
that I could find in the code is as follows:


(a) It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.

Patriotic effect? Patriotic organization?
It's my considered opinion that *any* organization has the
right to claim itself a "patriotic organization" and
can therefore wear a flag patch. Just as anyone can fly the
flag at night for "patriotic effect" if properly lighted.
No need to argue this endlessly, there's no authorative
reference to base an argument on, either way. It's what
we call an opinion.

"You flying that flag at night for patriotic effect, young
man?"
"Uhmm, no officer, I just kinda like the way it looks
lit up at night."
"Well, you better take it down then or I'll have to take
you in for violating Public Law 94-344."

Yeah right.

BTW, you can check the code out yourself, I posted the web
site here in this thread quite early on.

I'm sorry but I am just blown away by all this. The logic you guys are using escapes me completely. I'm free, as long as I'm free your way? How can it possibly be freedom worth "defending" if it goes out the window when the first bomb flies? I'm not saying that anything should go, especially not in terms of desecration or being offensive, but what does any of this have to do with basketball? My opinions about my country, my country's enemies, my country's friends, or anything else of national politics should have no bearing on my basketball. That's freedom. Associations requiring refs to wear flags, or even recommending, feels like prayer in the public schools. It sounds good on paper, but when you start to think about it, it gets real dicey. Whose prayer? Which God? Which form? Kneeling how? Facing where? It is outlawed for a reason, it's unconstitutional, and so should the requirement to express political views be.

If we start requiring certain expressions, we sink to the level of the Taliban, forcing people into lock step uniformity, rather than freeing people to pursue their own happiness. Over and over again, other political expressions have been "un-required" by the Supreme Court, such as the flag salute, the singing of the National Anthem and so forth and so on. Why would requiring or even recommending a flag on our uniforms be any different?



[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 15th, 2001 at 08:50 PM]

Look, feel free to wear or not wear whatever you like on
your stripes, but again I ask are you opposed to an
assocation or league requiring you to wear an emblem
in general? When you get to the NCAA D1 tournament will you
refuse to wear the round black patch that says "NCAA" on
it because you are defending your rights and freedoms?
Finally, please do not insult those that lost their lives
and those that will lose their lives by spouting inane
nonsense about us sinking "to the level of the Taliban".
Doing so makes you sound very unaware of the realities we
face.

There is only one God. We all just have different understandings and <em>opinions</em> of what he is like and what he requires. Even when there are organizations or meetings of many faiths, they seem to find a common ground in having a prayer that is acceptable.
The difference is <b>public</b> schools versus <b>private</b> officials' organizations. The supreme court has upheld right of private organizations to establish requirements more confining than the constitution allow for public institutions. The constitution doesn't allow the government to outlaw such things. (The recent Boy Scouts ruling, for example.) Futher, the unconstitionality of prayer in schools is marginal. It was a split decision, if I remember right. It was constitutional for 200 years before some more liberal judges came to the bench and interpreted it differently than all their predecessors.

The supreme court rulings on "un-required" it for public instutions. Their rulings have no bearing on private instutions.

For that matter, it seems like the association that is requiring this took a VOTE and it was nearly unanimous (all present voted for it, with a few absences). That's about a democratic and free as it gets. The association as a body chose to do it.

This country was founded on Christian principle and by Christian people. The country's founding fathers are probably rolling in the graves over the recent Supreme Court's desecration of the prinicples on which this country formed.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 16th, 2001 at 12:39 PM]