another rules question

[roadking]

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to inbound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

[Ed Maeder]

Sounds like a leave it alone.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by roadking

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to end bound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

Depends if the ball is on the floor or in the air when A1 taps it. If it's in the air, it's legal, as long as at least one foot is OOB, and no part of him is touching in bounds.
If it's on the floor when he taps it, it's a violation, I think. I'll have to check the rules on it, though.

[RookieDude]

NFHS 9-2 NOTE: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass.

[roadking]

snaqweel,
thats what ive come up with, i had a friend (coach) ask me this question so i would to support it with a rules cite.

how do you put someones post in the high lighted quote?

[BktBallRef]

Click Quote.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by roadking

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to inbound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

NFHS 9-2-2 The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
NFHS 4-31 A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

but -

NFHS 4-9-1,2 Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines.
The inside edges of these lines define the inbounds and out-of-bounds areas.

So was the ball ever actually out of bounds?

NFHS 4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Yes it was! So there is no violation here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

So was the ball ever actually out of bounds?

NFHS 4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Yes it was! So there is no violation here.

Despite the ball being in contact with the floor it seems that the ball should be considered out-of-bounds at the moment the OOB player touches it.

RULE4, SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 1 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.


Therefore, I wish to sidestep this issue and would support calling a violation on this throw-in play by pointing to 9-2-5 ". . . The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court."

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Despite the ball being in contact with the floor it seems that the ball should be considered out-of-bounds at the moment the OOB player touches it.

RULE4, SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 1 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.


Therefore, I wish to sidestep this issue and would support calling a violation on this throw-in play by pointing to 9-2-5 ". . . The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court."

I agree that the player is out of bounds, but it seems to me that the out of bounds status of the ball takes precedence over the backcourt status of the ball. There is no definition for "carry" in the Rule Book or anything in the Case Book that I can find that would help clarify, other than 4-15-4-b The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands , but I still can't think that that instant of the thrower tapping or pushing the ball can be construed as "carrying" the ball.

And since it doesn't seem to me that a ball can have both backcourt and out of bounds status at the same time, I don't see how even if you ruled the thrower's touch of the ball a carry, that the ball could somehow be both in the backcourt and out of bounds at the same time (during the time the thrower's hand is in contact with the ball).

Think of it this way: You don't call a backcourt violation when a sliding player, in contact with out of bounds, touches the ball in the backcourt near the sideline for what would have been a backcourt violation if the player had been in bounds -- you call out of bounds, don't you? -- Because the ball is now out of bounds - not in the backcourt, technically.

Or am I totally off on this?

[BktBallRef]

Backcourt has nothing to do with this situation. It's either inbounds or out of bounds. Forget about BC.

The original poster is not clear. If the ball is on the floor and the thrower pushes it to his teammate, it's a violation as the ball is inbounds and was never OOB. If the ball is not touching the floor, then the tocuh by the thrower is legal.

You guys are making this way harder than it should be.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the ball is on the floor and the thrower pushes it to his teammate, it's a violation as the ball is inbounds and was never OOB.

I understand what you're saying, and both reason and the multitude of problems that I could see arising from the defense getting involved in the touching of this ball would lend to the common sense ruling of a violation, but doesn't NFHS 4-4-4 support the ball having out of bounds status during the touch by the thrower? A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location. How can you get around that? Throw-in provisions don't state that the ball must break the throw-in boundary line plane for the ball to legally be thrown in.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by roadking

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to inbound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

Yep, leave it alone.

[just another ref]

Team A scores. B1 grabs the ball and starts to take it out. He has one foot in and one foot out, and passes to B2. I called a violation. But, what happened was that B1 realized that A was coming with pressure and that B2 should take the ball out. I was disoriented when I realized what they were doing, but the call stood. 9.2.2 Situation C is the closest thing I find to this, but at what point does this become a violation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Team A scores. B1 grabs the ball and starts to take it out. He has one foot in and one foot out, and passes to B2. I called a violation. But, what happened was that B1 realized that A was coming with pressure and that B2 should take the ball out. I was disoriented when I realized what they were doing, but the call stood. 9.2.2 Situation C is the closest thing I find to this, but at what point does this become a violation?

It becomes a violation when you think that B1 is actually making a throw-in instead of just giving the ball to B2 to make the throw-in. Judgment call iow.

[Adam]

I'd give it just a moment to see what B2 does with the ball. Patient whistle, IOW.