Screaming at Shooter
 

I can't recall and unfortunately don't have rule book with me if there is anything covering this sit. Player is on break away ( I know its a different sport) for a clear layup. The defender runs up behind her and screams at her as she was shooting. Got anything?

I felt, because I wasn't there, it would depend what and how it was done. I don't think there is anything in the rules except perhaps a warning for sportsmanship and depending on the severity perhaps a T.

I guess if they screamed "F!ck you!" or something like that I would have something. Of course, that would be an easy unsporting T. But a simple "HEY!" (which I've seen before), isn't going to get anything from me.

You got a made basket or a kid scared too death!!!!! Leave it alone.

Ok My turn, too as in "also" or to as in "expressing a resulting condition".

I had this once:

A1 going in for an uncontested layup. B1 tries to catch up, and when realizes she can't block the shot, she yells loudly and almost directly in the ear of A1. I held the whistle for a split second, let the shot be in progress, then issued an unsporting T.

There's no place in youth athletics for such behavior.

Other than the fact that the yelling was right in A1's ear, I have let it go.

This is my thinking as well. No need to display such an action. So yelling in the opponents ear so as to distract the offense is Unsportsmanlike. I just want to be able to back it up with something in the rules or guidelines.

Yeah, yeah, are the the post police or grammer monitor??? LOL.....

Your Grammer oughta smack you upside the head for not knowing how to spell <b>"grammar"</b>.

I take it you have never had a long day and since you seem to have "perfect" GRAMMA, dont hate on those who may slip every now and then. To take a line from your post.....peace.

My <B>GRAMMA</B> was always perfect.

She made the best Christmas cookies, too.

Okay, my turn........... :)

Got a little stuttering problem there? :D

This is not a defensive act. Saying "HEY" is way different than just screaming at someone. No sane person is going to argue that screaming is a good defensive tactic. If it happens during the shoot I thing a T would nip it in the bud from happening again. If not during a shoot, a visit with the coach should clear it up. There is no doubt the act itself is unsportsmanlike.

This is not a defensive act. Saying "HEY" is way different than just screaming at someone. No sane person is going to argue that screaming is a good defensive tactic. If it happens during the shoot I thing a T would nip it in the bud from happening again. If not during a shoot, a visit with the coach should clear it up. There is no doubt the act itself is unsportsmanlike.

We've discussed this before. No matter how unpleasant or unacceptable you may think it, it's not illegal. If you call an unsporting T, you'd better have a jolly good explanation, because there's no rule book support of any kind. I suppose if it's close enough to the ear that it might cause damage, you'd be justified. Otherwise, ya gotta let it go, and lobby the rules committee to get your way.

About 7 or 8 years ago, I remember an Fed interpretation regarding yelling "BALL, BALL, BALL". It was deemed legal only while being closely guarded. I also remember our state extending this to the play described in OP. I agree it is not valid defense and has no place in the game.

Who decided that this is not illegal? There certainly is rules book support for a technical foul here if the official deems this to be an unsporting foul.
Until the NFHS comes out with a play ruling that explicitly states that yelling at an opponent is acceptable, I'll read the rule and decide for myself whether the action comes under its purview, thanks.

4-19-14 . . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Puh-leeze. :rolleyes:

As the they said in the Wizard of Oz...Not nobody, not nohow!

I don't remember ever seeing an interp saying anything like that. Are you sure? Usually, if the FED issues one, they'll put it in the case book the next year.

And the ones that do will get their azzes chewed out by angry old assignors.:)

Yes, the rules do allow an individual official to label that an unsporting act and issue a "T" for it. Barring profanity, no, it sureasheck isn't the usual procedure or common practice to call it though- in my experience anyway.

I agree it should be a technical foul if the gym is quiet and the defensive player screams and all can hear it I would go ahead and whack the player. Hopefully there is some type of cheering going on in the gym (covering up the scream somewhat) and I can possibly get to that player after the play and let them know that it will not be tolerated.

Have the stones to make the right call and not just the most popular call.

Easier said than done. If you go blowing that T in the leagues I work, you won't work long. I can't say I think the yelling is the most sportsmanlike practice, but I can't say I'd throw a T on it. If you go out and throw every by the book T you see, I doubt if the contracts will keep coming your way. Is that right? Maybe not, but that's the way the profession works.

By the book T? This one isn't! Even if it's legitimate to "interpret" the act of yelling at the shooter as unsportsmanlike, that's an interp not a by the book T. Lots of leeway here not to call this. Not much leeway to call it.

And "stones" aren't what's required to call this. Popularity isn't the point here. Following the rules is. Just because I want to call something even though it's legal, doesn't mean it takes intestinal fortitude to call it. THat's just plain .......... well, whatever.....

I agree completely Rainmaker. I was trying to make the point that if an official goes looking for anything that could possibly be unsporting, they won't be moving up the chain any time soon. I suppose if it was yelled directly into an ear like an earlier post, I might bring the T, but otherwise I'm never even thinking about addressing this.

Ah...discretion, interpretation, and judgment...so good to hear that from you.;)

Now that's much different from your first post in which you flatly stated, "No matter how unpleasant or unacceptable you may think it, it's not illegal," and "there's no rule book support of any kind."

That was the point of my responding post.:)

Notice that I did not say that I would call a T for this, I merely wrote that, in the absence of anything directly addressing it from the NFHS, I would interpret the rule and decide if it qualified as an unsporting foul.

Yup, if the accepted and expected foul in your area is to ignore this one, then it would probably be kinda smart to do whatever everybody else is doing( and what your assignors/evaluators want you to do). You don't want to be <b>That Official</b>. :)

And....personally I've never seen any area where the expected and accepted call is an unsporting "T": for plays like this. Of course, that sureasheck doesn't mean that there aren't any.

Bottom line imo.....get some advice from your local pooh-bahs on how they want it called.

Well, except that I put "interp" into "quotation marks" and I never said discretion or judgment. I'm certainly NOT a letter of the law kind of gal, but there's no way this call is anywhere near the letter of the law, that was my point. Someone called it a "by the book" T. It's absolutely not. Period. In fact, it's the interp that's the furthest/farthest from the book.

Like I said if it's just a flat out scream at someone who's shooting an open lay-up, and you don't call something you will have as much explaining to do as I. Every idiotic thing that can happen isn't coverd in the rule book. I had it happen, and I have seen it happen (always girls). But to just let it go, and have a bunch of people screaming intermittenly at one another is just ridiculous. Call a T, don't call a T. But to say or do nothing for an act that has nothing to do with the game is short sided.

As I said before, not in my area. You would have a heckuva lot more explaining to do if you did call a "T". It would certainly slow down your advancement up the ladder too.

I'd check with my peers/asssignor/evaluator on that one, if I were you. Jmo fwiw.

Very well put, I agree, something has to be done. We just can't ignore it (well some of you will).

I'm completely with JR here. Addressing this is just looking to make a good night into a bad one. I've never even heard of someone taking care of this. In my experience, the offesive player makes the basket more often than not and the defensive player figures out that it's just a stupid move that doesn't work.

Amen. And it just doesn't happen much anyway. Ignoring it doesn't make it get worse, because it's stupid, as you say. And since it's not illegal, I say, ignore away!

Just two (euro) cents:

FIBA Official Interpretations 2006, art. 38, statement 3:
"While a player is in the act of shooting for goal, opponents shall not be permitted to disconcert that player by actions such as waving a hand(s) to obstruct the shooter’s field of vision, shouting loudly, stamping feet heavily or clapping hands near the shooter. To do so may result in a technical foul if the shooter is disadvantaged by the action, or a warning if the shooter is not disadvantaged.

Example
A4 is in the act of shooting for a goal when B4 attempts to distract A4 by shouting loudly or stamping feet heavily of the floor. The shot for goal is:
(a) Successful
(b) Unsuccessful.

Interpretation:
(a) A warning shall be given to B4 and shall be communicated to coach B. This warning shall apply to all players of team B for the remainder of the game for similar behaviour.
(b) A technical foul shall be charged to B4."

There you go again, unequivocally stating that this action is not illegal. That is what I objected to earlier. What you have written is simply not true. It is up to the discretion of the official working that particular game to determine the legality of this type of action. There is not a single official on this forum who can authoritatively tell you that screaming at an opposing shooter is a legal play. The most anyone who is not an NFHS rules committee member or an official state interpreter can do is say how he/she personally interprets it or how he/she recommends this play be called.

The bottom line is that this is a judgment call.

Interesting to see how FIBA judges this act. :)

Personally, I like the FIBA approach to this.

I forgot to point out that this situation is not covered anywhere in the FIBA Rulebook.

So it is an interpretation not from the Rulesbook? Aside from the interpretation, do you see it called?

How does an interpretation not come from a rule?

Nevada, it's exactly the fact that the rules committee doesn't say it's illegal that makes it not illegal. My interpretations are completely irrelavant. It's the rules committee that gets to make the rules. And they haven't ruled on this.

I don't like it when kids do it, but the only reason people seem to give for calling it is do discourage them from doing it. But there's nothing in the rules about being allowed to do that, so I can't just "judgment" myself into doing it according to my preferences.

It comes from 38.1.2: "Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play."
They however issued the interpretation to make it clearer.

And yes, I see this called. Actually, people will complain if you don't...

So, it is not explicitly illegal by the book, but the interpretation makes clear it is, since it is not an act within "the spirit of sportsmanship".

As you well know not every situation which could arise during a game has a specific play ruling. If the NFHS attempted to do that, then the rules book would be bigger than the encyclopedia.

The fact is that the NFHS does currently have a rule which covers this. The NFHS rules committee wrote the rule so that the game officials have the power to enforce sporting behavior. Judgment is a huge factor in this. Your interpretation is completely relevant. It is up to YOU to rule on this. If you do not believe that this action is "in accordance with the spirit of fair play," then you are authorized to charge an unsporting foul.

Nope. Not 100%. It could just have been the state. I think it was originally directed at girls yelling "BALL, BALL, BALL" but the interpretation we were given included the OP.

Well, it happens so rarely, and is usually so unsuccessful that it's not really as big a deal as this.

So.... I'm gonna follow my own advice and go get a life. Anything besides arguing about this. Maybe I"ll read my kids to sleep tonight.

So FIBA treats basketball like golf or bowling? Interesting.

I don't really think the point of the FIBA rule (which I like) is to make basketball like golf. But the fact is that yelling at the shooter is NOT playing defense, it is NOT a basketball skill and it is NOT sportsmanlike.

When we are taught how to call intentional fouls at the end of the game, one of the expressions that we hear over and over is make sure the defender is making a "basketball play". You can hit someone's arm in a normal defensive posture, or you can hit someone's arm from behind with no chance to touch the ball. The first is a normal "basketball play"; the second is not. It's possible to be surprised by an opponent's cut to the ball and reach out and inadvertantly hold the player (even the player's jersey); you can also simply grab the jersey on purpose to prevent the cut to the ball. The first is a "basketball play"; the second is not.

I think the FIBA rule eliminates tactics that are clearly not "basketball plays". Yelling at someone is not part of what it takes to play the game. Getting rid of this "tactic" would be a positive step, IMHO.

Best way to get rid of it is for shooters not to be affected.

That's cool, ScrappyDoo, but would you have the courage of your convictions to ever call that in a FED or NCAA game?

If they included it as a new rule or POE, you bet I would. I hate that crap. As the rules stand now, I don't call it -- I've been told not to call it -- even though I believe it to be unsportsmanlike. Give me a rule to stand on, and this will happen only once in my game.

Oooooooooooohhhhhhhh!:eek:

Didn't you read NevadaRef's posts?:D