I've been asked to take about 15 minutes at the beginning of practice to talk to a 7th and 8th grade team. I think it's probably a good idea, but I don't really know what I should say that would be interesting or of use to them. Any suggestions?

Chuck

Just give them some basic fundamentals (ie: what is a double dribble,how we call a travel, hand checking, 10 second violation, 5 second violation, captains meeting.)
Then let them ask you some questions.

fouls
 

Explain to them that fouls aren't a bad thing... that's why they give you five.
Talk about extending the arms to prevent a player from going around them.
...about how it's okay to talk to refs.
...about getting the ball to the ref when the whistle blows
...about matching undershirts
...about logos on wristbands
...about earings and new punctures
...about tying their shoes with square knots
...about Over-and-back and throw-ins.
...about the fouls of hands,holds and blocks
...about how refs see different things
...about stomping feet on free throws and sportsmanship
and
...about how you'll cover more at the next meeting.

oh, yeah.
 

Go in uniform.

Wow, 15 minutes is NOT a long time so you should be prepared
with 2 or 3 points you want to make & leave a few minutes
for questions. My suggeston:

1. Sportsmanship. Behavior expected on the court & on the
bench. Remind them this ain't the NBA, they are there to
learn something (about the game, about life) but more
importantly to have some fun & work up a sweat. I'm not
saying the kids you'll be talking to are a bunch of thugs.
I just think it would be good to hit on this topic in your
limited time.

2. It might be useful to go over the rules concerning the
throw-in and the free throw. This will be especially
useful to the coaches, who are probably even more
confused than the kids are concerning this, if they are
the typical 7/8 grade "dad" coaches. They probably won't retain it all but it should get them thinking.

3. If any time is left go over the travel rule. The idea
here is to get them to stop thinking in terms of the
myths associated with this rule (2 steps, 1 1/2 steps,
going to the basket, etc etc) and get them thinking about
the pivot foot as the basis for the rule. Mention standing
up and sitting/falling down with the ball.

4. You might want to say 1 sentence about the 3 second rule
& how it's enforced. This would be for the coaches
benefit mostly.

Have fun!

I do not want to sound like a spoil sport, but I would recommend to the coach that for you to do a really professional job, you should have at least one hour of the team's time. Explain to him that you are sure that he spends a lot of time studying X's and O's with his team. Since basic knowledge of the rules and what the players should know, then 15 minutes with the team will not allow you to cover everything that he and his team needs to know.

Every year we offer a short clinic to all that will have us, and have found no coach that has not welcomed the chance to have us address his/her team about the rule changes and field questions from the players. I believe this is an excellant way to build that rapport with players, because you never know when that will aid you in a game.

Good Luck

Mark, you do realize these are 12 yr olds we're talking
about, right?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Mark, you do realize these are 12 yr olds we're talking about, right?

And they only get about 2 or 3 hours of gym time per week. So taking a full hour from them is simply out of the question. I'm not sure that I could hold their attention for an hour by talking about rules, anyway.

Chuck

Ask the Coach to invite parents.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Ask the Coach to invite parents.

Great idea, mick. I think I'll do that.

Chuck

I do not know about other states but in Ohio and Michigan the 7th and 8th grade teams practice every night afterschool except on days when they have games and those practices usually run from 1-1/2 to 2 hours long. One hour out of their entire season of practice is not too much. If we want to be treated as professional then we have to treat our avocation as a profession. I just officiated a girls' jr. H.S. basketball DH last night and the coaches from both teams had not bothered to teach their teams any of the fundamental rules of the game:

1: One and one free throws.

2: How to line up for free throws.

3: When Team A scores a field goal, Team B inbounds the
ball along the endline under Team A' basket.

4: When an official blows his whistle, all of the players
are to look and listen to that official for information
as to what is going to happen next.

What is even worse is that I have had teams at the varsity level call a timeout and then when the timeout is over come to me and ask which team is going to get the ball for the throw-in.

As Fred Horgan, as Past-President of IAABO and Canada's represetative to FIBA, once said, basketball officials are the keepers of the game. And it is our duty to educate coaches, players, the media, and sometimes parents and fans about the rules of the game. Fifteen minutes cannot begin to do justice to what we can and need to give to the young basketball players that we see every year. If a coach wants to give me only 15 min. then he is telling me that he really does not think what we officials have to say is very important.

Mark, It's just my opinion, but you REALLY need to come down off the "professional" bit. We're not professionals. But even if we are, we can't dictate to a coach how to run his practice. This coach works with 5 different teams for a small Lutheran school. They rent a small gym from a small Catholic church in town. He simply cannot give up an hour of practice time for a rules lecture. I understand that in an ideal world, we'd get all the time we wanted to stress all the new points of emphasis and everyone would be ecstatic to hear them. But that's not where this team is located, so I get 15 or 20 minutes. The fact that he wants me there at all says that he wants his players to get a better perspective on the game.

Chuck

One important aspect of being a professional is to not put ourselves above the game...take the 15 or 20 minutes and be as enthusiastic with it as you can...go in with this other guy's attitude of "How dare you only give me 15 minutes", and you will be wasting everybody's time...keep it simple and fun...cover the really important things like sportsmanship, lining up for free throws, etc...turn it in to your rules clinic and you lose them all...good luck, and let us know how it goes...

Most coaches don't even do this! We
have ONE that wants us to come out
and give a short talk. If I were
you Chuck, I would feel honored that
they respect your prospective of the
game and I would talk just as long as
they would allow.

The points to make, I feel, are very
level specific. Like at the 7th and
8th grade level, for one, I would
discuss the "backcourt" violation.
It is often misunderstood. I
would explain about the three points
being in the frontcourt, etc. Another
misconception, in my area at this age,
is that if a player obtains a rebound
while standing behind another player
that should automatically be, and
I quote, "over the back", thus a foul.
Without beind too technical, I would
talk about verticality in that situation.

Little stuff that they have probably
heard their parents yell out would hit home.
At this age and attention span, hit the
high spots that you think would stick
with them.

Just my two cents,
Lori

In addition to officiating basketball, I also coach youth soccer (currently U9---8 year olds---3rd grade) and have done so for 4 years. With the <em>beginning</em> years of any sport, the coaches job is more to teach fundamentals and enjoyment of the game. I don't even bother to try to teach anything about the rules of soccer until it is called and the kids wonder what happened. Even though offsides is enforced at our level, I have never tried to explain it since we've never had it called. I've got many more important topics to cover: dribbling, passing, trapping, spacing, defending, shooting, etc. They will benefit far more at this age from that than any real discussion of the rules. Just this year, we've had to concentrate on legal throw-ins. Last year, it was just get the ball back into the field.

I tell the kids to just keep playing until they hear the whistle...the ref will tell them what the call is. If they wonder what happened, I tell the subs on the sideline and later tell the ones that were in the game. Most rules situations would just go over their head until they see it happen.

Now, at 7th/8th grade, the kids are more educated and able to understand things that my kids are not. However, it would still be a general waste of time to cover any more than just a few basic things. They can only absorb so much at once. After that point, it is pointless....

Did he say it was a travel for the dribbler to bounce the ball off the backboard and catch the ball if the three points were not in the frontcourt while the defender was in a legal guarding stance with less than 0.3 seconds left in overtime after a designated spot throw-in after a foul that resulted in a correctable error of cancelling an unmerited FT while the subs were standing and the offical was counting to 10???? ;)

Just teach them to dribbler, guard, pass and shoot. The rest is secondary at that age.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Sep 25th, 2001 at 07:28 PM]

At the 7th/8th grade level I always include the message that they are not going to have NBA/WNBA officials. (The truth of the matter is they will have inexperienced officials who, in some cases, have almost no training yet. I don't say that.) Players will miss shots; officials will miss calls. The point is it is only a game, and they must play the game they get, not the one they want. Everything in life is not fair (just ask the families of those in the World Trade Towers). Expect opportunities to learn life-lessons and take advantage of those games.

Of course, you have to word this message however you can deliver it while being positive and not undermining officials.

Mark DeNucci is right again!!!
 

I wholeheartedly agree with Mark DeNucci. Also, if we were not professionals we would be refereeng BB for free.
I believe 1 Hr is the absolute minimum time to make the session worth while and only the very basics should be covered. There should be lots of play situations ie Jump ball, Free Throw , Guarding and screening situations demonstrated for the players and the coaches. Get everyone involved on the floor!!! If done correctly this session could be the best "practice" they have all year. I personally have witnessed Fred Horgan conduct such sessions with players, coaches , parents and other officials in attendance. It never mattered what the age groups of players, he simply kept it to their level, and it worked every time !!
Try to convince the coach to give you more time and failing that just go talk to them In Uniform and stress Sportsmanship and Safety issues only. You won't have time for anything else. Good Luck !!!
YIBB
Pistol

Peter, I just checked with my accountant to see how much I was paying you and I told him to give you a 100% raise.

Ladies and gentlemen, as sports officials, we are educators, and the age level of the players at the start of this string is jr. H.S. age.

Beside being a structural engineer, in real life, I substitute teach mathematics, physics, and general science at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level. The fundamentals of basketball are not rocket science. Why should not a 7th or 8th grade basketball player understand what a one-and-one free throw situation.

My high school basketball coach was also a basketball official. He could never understand how a person could coach a basketball team and not know the rules of the game. Jr. H.S. students are capable of playing chess, Monopoly, and other board or card games whose rules are more complicated that the rudimentary rules of basketball but we, as officials, are willing to give a free pass to coaches who do not do their jobs to teach their players those fundamental rules of the game.

I am sorry, but it is not an official's job to teach a 7th or 8th grader what a one-and-one free throw situation or how to line up for free throws during the game; it is their coach's job to teach them these things. Those players should know that before they ever walk on the court for the first game of the season. Just this last night my partner stepped into the lane to administer the first throw of a one-and-one, it was late in the second quarter of a 7th grade game; it was the sixth game of the season for both teams. The shot was missed and rebounded back to the shooter. Not one single player moved after the shot hit the rim. The shooter caught the ball and then started to walk toward me with the ball. I blew my whistle and called traveling. Her coach was not happy with me. He wanted me to give his team the ball back because they did not understand what one-and-one meant; remember this was the fourth bonus situation of the game. My partner and I told him that we were not going to bail him out because he did not do his job as coach; he did not like being told the truth.

I will address any group of players, coaches, parents, or media, about the rules of the games. We should all be willing to do that from time to time but we should also be willing to make sure that we do it in a manner that befits us as sports officials and not in a manner that belittles our position as sports officials.

I love it!!!
 

Richard, yer a poet.

mick

Mark, here's the deal in a nutshell:

1. 7/8 graders, church league
2. Limited gym time, maybe 2 to 3 hrs per week including
games probably, liable to be reduced if there's an extra
bingo or school function.
3. Dad coach asks ref to give 15 minute talk on the rules.
4. Ref says sure, comes here for suggestions
5. Ref gets a fistful of grief because he's not
"professional".
6. No good deed goes unpunished, QED

Excuse me, but how does addressing a team for the 15 minutes allotted "belittle our position as sports officials"?

We should, as sports officials IMO, be grateful for any opportunity to help players, fans, coaches, etc. to understand the rules of the game and their application. Expecting an hour to do this might be nice and desireable, but is unrealistic. Do you really expect 7th and 8th graders to pay attention for an hour? Remember this is a lot more interesting to you than it is to them.

You might want to ask the coach what it is that he wants covered. Take what you can get, hit the high spots and answer all of the kid's questions. That is the best thing you can do.

Something else with regards to sportsmanship...."You don't have to agree with what the official calls...You don't have to like what the official calls....All that you HAVE to do is show respect!"

(This is from a ref that also happens to be a Mom of a 11-year-old basketball playing son!)

Good Luck!
Becky

Reading over the replys shows various opinions, but I think we have lost sight of what's important. IT'S ONLY A GAME.
Go over basic rules that occur in every game (travel, 3sec, palming, etc), but tell the kids, coaches and parents to have fun. Officials are here to help everyone learn more about the fine points of this great game.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

Quote:

Do you really expect 7th and 8th graders to pay attention for an hour? Remember this is a lot more interesting to you than it is to them. You might want to ask the coach what it is that he wants covered. Take what you can get, hit the high spots and answer all of the kid's questions. That is the best thing you can do.

As a someone who teaches at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level I most certainly do expect students at that age to be able to sit attentively and listen to an adult and to be able to ask intelligent questions.

School sports in the U.S. is supposed to be part of the learning experience (I do not necessarily buy into that school of thought). The quality of education in the U.S. is a major concern to the citizens of this country. One major problem with quality of education is that we do not demand more of our students and their parents. Telling me that 7th and 8th grade students are not capable of sitting attentively and listen to an adult for one hour is a classic example of the dumbing down of our students.

There have been a number of times when I have been told by a mathematics teacher, for whom I have substituted, that I am teaching over her students'heads. When following a teacher's instructions to go over a homework assignment, I have found that the students do not even know how to set up the problem to be able attempt a solution. Instead they are shown example problems which are very simplistic, but the teachers do not follow up with more demanding problems that require the students to think logically, and in the process discover how the example problems relate to a similar problem.

Today's students are more sophisticated than we think. We need to challenge. We do not challenge them because we do not want anybody to fail. But we cannot learn unless we do fail sometimes.

Hey Chuck, looks like you are just a cog in the massive
movement to dumb down America's childrem after all.
Forget the basketball rules, those kids need an hour on
partial differential equations. Next season we're
gonna tackle Maxwell's equations.

Chuck: Since there is a limit on the time that you have been give. Ask the coach if you can have the one whole pratice have the other players,coachs,parents to come, ask some of the other officals in your area to donate some time , and run a rules clinic for the kids. Cover the rules they will play under, let them ask some questions.
This will help them for the next level (H.S)and let them know what they see on TV (NBA)is a BUSINESS.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but how do these two things go together. I've been given a time limit, so how in the world am I going to get the whole practice? There's just no way the coach can give up that time. I agree that I would love to do what you suggest, but there's not a chance of that happening.

Chuck

How the heck did math problems get involved in this conversation??? I am a Middle School teacher - I teach 7th and 8th grade Math and History classes. Ask any of my students, and they will tell you that I am very demanding and have very high expectations of them - academically and behaviorally. I also am not fool enough to think that I can walk into their PE classes and give them a lecture for 60 minutes without having LOTS of disruptive behavior...the kids at that practice will be there to run around and practice basketball...try to sit them down and give them a lengthy discourse on rules and you WILL lose them after 10-15 minutes...come to my open gym time and try to give the adults there a lecture and you WILL lose us in about 5 minutes...they are there to play...don't be an *** and demand things from the coach...take the time allotted and give the best 15 min. presentation you can!!

I have read through the thread with interest and thought I would put in my two shekels. In our local rec league, we have a policy of a ref making a presentation to all teams (we have over 125) at a practice. The presentation is somewhat "canned" and takes about 10 minutes. It does not cover the fundamentals of basketball, but specifically focuses on things such as waiting until beckoned when subbing, don't huddle on free throws, don't dawdle on getting into position for inbounds plays, how to behave properly toward the officials and the other team, and proper wearing of the uniform (correct color t-shirt under the jersey, tuck in the jersey and no jewelry). We emphasize our zero tolerance profanity policy.

These are boys and girls in grades 3-8. Usually we can get to 4 teams in one night per gym if we go at the practice time "turnover" from one hour to the next, since 2 teams share a gym for practice. Some of our gyms have 2 floors side by side, so we can reach 8 teams at once. Since we have about 40 refs, it's not much of a time-consumer for each one of us and the payoff is tremendous.

I think the coach should be commended for even inviting an official in.

Chuck is going to be a GUEST, and as such I do not see how he can dictate terms of his visit. If he goes back and says I will only do it if you give me an hour, then what kid of jerk will he look like? Professional? Doing that will make him look quite unprofessional.

Take the few minutes, cover what you can (If I remember from speech class 15 minutes is longer than you think) and do the best you can. You cannot give a clinic, but maybe you will be helping a fellow brother official a few games down the line with what you do cover. If there are any parents who show up, maybe see if you can stick around with them off to the side to answer their questions. I, for one, would be interested in hearing what they asked.

As a someone who teaches at the jr. H.S. and H.S. level I most certainly do expect students at that age to be able to sit attentively and listen to an adult and to be able to ask intelligent questions.

School sports in the U.S. is supposed to be part of the learning experience (I do not necessarily buy into that school of thought). The quality of education in the U.S. is a major concern to the citizens of this country. One major problem with quality of education is that we do not demand more of our students and their parents. Telling me that 7th and 8th grade students are not capable of sitting attentively and listen to an adult for one hour is a classic example of the dumbing down of our students.

There have been a number of times when I have been told by a mathematics teacher, for whom I have substituted, that I am teaching over her students'heads. When following a teacher's instructions to go over a homework assignment, I have found that the students do not even know how to set up the problem to be able attempt a solution. Instead they are shown example problems which are very simplistic, but the teachers do not follow up with more demanding problems that require the students to think logically, and in the process discover how the example problems relate to a similar problem.

Today's students are more sophisticated than we think. We need to challenge. We do not challenge them because we do not want anybody to fail. But we cannot learn unless we do fail sometimes. [/QUOTE]

Mr. Denucci,

Thank you for pointing out the educational concerns of the country. I had no idea that citizens here cared about the quality of the learning that takes place in our public schools. I'm sure I'll be a better parent/concerned citizen from now on.

I think you have read way too much into my original post. I absolutely believe that 7th and 8th graders are completely capable of sitting still and paying attention for an hour, but honestly, how many of them actually will do this? This has nothing to do with "dumbing down" anyone. It is a simple fact. In a gym with various distractions (visual, audible, the person sitting next to them, the cute girl who walks through, etc.) they will not pay much attention to anyone, especially not a referee who they believe to be old and incompetent. I have a difficult time getting a HS senior (and captain of his team) to pay attention for a 1 minute pre-game meeting. Every player out there is capable of listening and understanding everything I say in this meeting, but is amazing how little they hear and retain. Why? Because they don't care what I have to say.

I agree that kids today are sophisticated and very bright. They are rarely challenged to exceed and succeed by their teachers. I interact with teenagers (who are not my children--mine are still quite young) almost daily in parts of my personal life. I am very well acquainted with their lives, capabilities and challenges--their attention span is largely a factor of the respect that they give to the person in front of them--not the message.

As I said before, take the 15 minutes, hit the high spots and answer every question. Be sure to thank the coach for the time.

[Edited by stripes on Sep 27th, 2001 at 03:48 PM]

I hope we don't have to have Maxwell's equations memorized still. I could hardly do that in college. (Think I'll stick to 7th grade and let someone else have the 8th grade. Differential equations are easier than Maxwell's.)

Use whatever time....
 

Use whatever time you get. We are in no place to <b>demand</b> any amount of time. Talk to the coach and find out what he/she wanted to accomplish by your visit. Then brainstorm about other areas the coach might like help. This could turn it into the better part of the practice. Sometimes I ref my daughter's team scrimmages (8th grade). We don't stop the play, but I yell what I would call. That way they know that would be called a foul, travel, whatever....

Also, volunteer to meet with the parents during any extra portion. Advertise the time as explaining the 5 most misunderstood rules, plus ask any question you want.

I wonder if there is a diplomatic way to explain to the players about the situations where a coach tells them to do something and it results in a violation or foul, and when you subsequently call it, they tell you that the coach told them to do it.

An example would be a coach calling a player over to the bench for a consult during a free throw where the player leaves the lane. I'm sure there are many others, such as a coach instructing a player to foul, then you calling the intentional.

Probably, most coaches wouldn't want you to cover this.

Maybe we could just put it this way:

rule #1) when a coach tells you to do one thing and an official tells you to do the other, the official is always right

rule #2) when in doubt, see rule #1

Chuck--

I've been off the board this week due to computer problems, so I am just now checking in at the end of page three.

I would do as others have suggested, cover sportsmanship, basics, mechanics (llining up for free throws, etc). Emphasize that what they see on TV is not going to be a good guide for their own play. Near the end of the 15 minutes, I would offer to stay another 15 minutes to do some floor demonstrations (using several players at once) on things like block/charge, legal and illegal dribble moves, and so on. Make these active and busy, and include some element of "practice" or drill. Then offer the coach to do some annotated scrimmaging, either that day or another day, with emphasis on dribbling, 3 seconds, and legal defense.

Afterwards, tell the coach what a good idea it is for him to understand the rules, and offer the address for a book. Offer to do a similar lesson to parents, who probably need it the worst of anyone.

How could any coach refuse all that help and flattery?