No time out left, or do I
 

This weekend at a 9th grade tournament, Team b coach asks the official scorekeeper (parent of team A player), how many timeouts he had left. Scorekeeper indicates he has 1 timeout left. Both my partner and I hear him tell him he has 1 timeout left. It was a 2 point ballgame with less than a minute to go. Team b get controll of the ball, and calls for a timeout. Scorekeeper then tells us he was mistaken, Team b had no timeouts left, and Team A had the remaining timeout.

We did not penalize team b for an excessive timeout, but coach for team a wanted us to just that. We explained to him what happened, he wasn't happy, but he didn't argue much either. Would you have done the same? What would you do if this was a varsity contest? It wouldn't seem right to penalize a team if they got bad information from the official scorer.

Don't you think a coach should know how many TO's he has taken? (I'm guessing yes)

How difficult is it for a coach to count each TO he takes? (I'm guessing not too difficult)

Give him the T

Normally, I'd say yes, the coach should know how many timeouts he has used. However, given the circumstances, with a 9th grade team and a parent of an opposing team's player giving the wrong information, I'd say the fair thing to do would be to let it go.

While team B should have their own scorekeeper tracking this, team A should also have better qualified scorekeeping personnel. Giving incorrect information like that could give the appearance of cheating, and we definitely don't want to go there.

I also might make a note of this and pass the word to tournament officials to keep an eye out for a re-occurence.

Jim,

It is not uncommon at a varsity game that a kid or some parent is keeping track of the team's book or official book during games. So I do not see why this is any different at the 9th grade level.

As Dan said, the coach can count. If they cannot count, shame on them. Give them a T.

Peace

As a former coach of youth basketball I can tell you it is VERY EASY to lose count. Each tournament has it's own rules as to how many timeouts you get. And your scorekeeper is typically another parent who can get caught up in the game and forget to write down a timeout.

The real question is what to do at a varsity game. Say his staff left the book at home so he doesn't have one. Or maybe he just lost track so he has his staff ask the bench how many TO's he has and they give him bad information. What would you do?

In any game if the timeout number was given out incorrectly by the table or officials I would not penalize, I would get them back on the floor now and off we go

Towards the end of the game the officals should check and see who has time outs and how many - then tell the coaches - if there is a discrepency it can be cleared up then. This eliminates any problem with so called "mis-information"

You need to make sure you have someone that is on your team keeping track of those kinds of things. In my experience JH teams have their own scorebook and they let their coaches know what is going on with the score, timeouts or foul situations. So if you cannot get someone to do that, it is not my problem as an official that you are unaware. ;)

I would call a T from the grade school level all the way to the college level. Part of your responsibility is a team is to keep track of these things. If you do not want to be cheated, then keep track. This is not football where official have a card in their pocket to know what the timeout situation is.

Peace

This is not our job. All the rules require are that table personnel to let us know when the team has run out and then we inform the team they have used all their timeout. It is not our obligation to find out what the timeout situation is, nor is that going to automatically prevent problems. If we are told the wrong number of timeouts left, we are just going to repeat improper information. There is a reason why all rules sets want the non-official bookkeepers to be at the table.

Peace

As a former youth coach I can tell you I never started a game without knowing the tournament rules (including number of TOs) and kept a close eye on the official scorer if he came from the other team. I don't know why it's so hard for a coach to make a ticky mark on a napkin every time he takes a TO, even if he is the only adult with his team.

Whack!<font>

JR I agree with the rule interpretation -
We are not required to inform the team of the number of time outs. It is however good preventive officiating - to know the situation and to inform the each bench - it helps to avoid a situation that can ruin your night.

Totally disagree. Table could pass bad info to you and then you are passing bad info on to the teams. Now, I will ask both bookkeepers what time-out counts they have to make sure they match, but the only time-out information I'm passing along to the coach is the one where I say "Coach, you have no more time-outs left."

I do not think it prevents anything. If the information is wrong, all your talking to the table is going to put you up as the one responsible.

Also a coach not knowing the timeout situation and getting a T for that is not going to ruin my night. That is something that is totally in their control.

Peace

You're right of course, when we're talking about a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball (I'm not saying I think you are all those things, just that I'm assuming that's what you are talking about). But that assumption gets very iffy in a lot of 9th grade ball, especially if it's girls. In the OP, I"d do just what he did, and also give the scorekeeper a little "chat" about being very careful what she says. If I heard the coach ask the scorekeeper, and the scorekeeper respond, I'd be inclined to interfere in that conversation, to be sure the info is correct.

But I'd be especially unhappy with coach A who wants his parent-book-person to be not held accountable for her error, which helps him. "Coach, you and I both know she wasn't deliberately wrong, and that she's doing the best she can to be fair to both teams. Let's you and I also adopt that attitude and let her off the hook so that she doesn't end up making you look bad." Or, "Coach, what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if she was a parent from team B, and she told you you had an extra TO that you didn't have? You'd be very unwilling to give Team B shots, eh?"

If we do it my way coach B will have learned something and he or she will never, ever make this mistake again (I'm assuming even the coaches in your neighborhood are somewhat trainable). If we do it your way you are depriving coach B of a chance to actually become a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball.

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

How about assessing a penalty for giving incorrect information?

Oh wait, that's in golf. :eek:

I think what these types of coaches will learn is that when things don't go their way based on some notion of "fairness" it's the official's job to wipe their...errr...their tears, that's it, pat them on the head, give them a big hug and a cookie before bending the rules and sending them back outside to play with their friends.

Of course when he runs into some hard @ss who really doeasn't want to hear it (or even a soft touch on a less than good day) this coach will whine & cry that the other ref fixed it for him last weekend and hold his breath until he gets his cookie.

Nah, T 'em up & be done with it. When little Susie innocently asks why the other team is getting to shoot the FTs the coach will be a better person if he/she is able to simply say "because I screwed up Susie, because I screwed up".

Dan,

For the record, if I got T'd up I would accept and understand it, because it is my responsibility to know how many timeouts (or is it times out:confused: ) I have left, even if I received bad information from the "official" scorekeeper.

If you don't mind me asking, what level do you guys officiate? You both seem to deal with the biggest a-hole coaches and players know to walk this earth that have nothing better to do then complain about what whistle you use or how you style your hair. I promise you that we are not all like that.

[QUOTE=ATXCoach]Dan,


Atx hit he nail on the head. It's not our responsibility to make sure that the coach's are getting correct information. If they don't want to track the info themselves and they are willing to trust the table then they should also be willing to accept the consequences. I coached for several years @ the varsity level. I NEVER, NEVER relied on the table for any info, (fouls, time outs, opposing teams fouls or time outs.) My assistants only job during the game was to make sure our book was as accurate if not better then the tables. So when I wanted info I could get it right away and I knew it was reliable.

As far as T'g the 9th grade coach. I would...for the simple fact that the coach needs to learn. The biggest part of the kids playing @ this level is to learn. The same would go for the coach's. If you did "T" this coach I guarantee he/she wouldn't rely on the table ever again. If a excessive time out is called for and the don't have one available then the rules dictate that we penalize. The book doesn't say penalize unless the received wrong info from the table. If the coach doesn't like it then in a professional manner explain that to keep it from happening again he should keep a book @ his bench.

I have to disagree with JR on this. I want to know when the team only has 1 time out or if they are out all together. If I relay this info to the coach's then it helps prevent a excessive time out. Most of the time when you remind the coach that they only have 1 time out left or that they are out he/she relays that automatically to the team. As far as getting wrong info from the table...unlikly @ the varsity level on up. This level and up will almost always keep the info themselves. Now I know J'Rs going to say that if they are keeping it why remind them? Well they may not remind their team. If I say something then they more then likely will pass the info on. Never had a coach get mad for reminding them of their time out situation.

Please provide a reference for your prescribed mechanic. I believe the book says that it's the official's responsibility to inform the coach when (s)he is out of timeouts.

You have totally missed the point I was making. I did not say you could not do that. If you want to hang out at the table all night that is entirely up to each official. I just know I am not going to do that. I have other things I would like to deal with at that time of the game. Telling coaches how many timeouts they have is not a big priority for me. I also feel that way based on what you said above. You said you did not need anyone to tell you what the timeout situation was when you coached, so why do I need to prevent something you should (and most of the time teams are already doing) know about in the first place? We all do not have to approach the game with the same priorities.

Peace

Hello JR good to hear from you. First let me say that I did have the info when I coached and was sure I had it. However I never got upset @ a official for reminding of such information. If anything I appreciated it. Wasn't really implying that you need to approach the game like I do. Since this was a open forum I was just giving my opinion. That all nothing more.

I never said I was concerned about a coach getting upset with me because I gave their timeout situation.

Just like you gave your opinion, I am giving mine. This is an open forum and this is a free country to do what you see fit when you officiate. ;)

Peace

Fair enough

Final Charged Time-Out
 

NFHS Rule 2-11-6

"The scorer shall: ... notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out."

As BillyMac has posted, an official is required to notify the coach when they have no time-outs remaining. It seems that the officials failed to fulfill a specified duty in this game.

That said, the extra time-out that the team requested is still excessive and must still be penalized with a team technical foul. Just know that this one is the officials' fault. :( Unfortunately, mistakes happen. Life's not fair sometimes, the game of basketball isn't fair sometimes either. It is a good life lesson.

You sure? <b> </b>

I think that the level of basketball has some bearing on this. I'm actually a coach, and at the HS level, I would have absolutely no problem with a technical in this situation, every time. At the grade school level, though, the point of the leagues and tournaments are to teach the game and have fun, a lot of times with parents as volunteers as both coaches and scorekeepers. In that case, even w/o rules backup, I can see an official saying right away that they were out of TOs, and start the game back up. I know there is no mechanic or rule/casebook play to back that up, but I could see it being the best way to handle it at younger levels.

While it is commendable to keep track of these things on your own, the official book is the official book. It doesn't matter if your asst. coach was more accurate, if there is a dispute about these things the official book takes precedence. So I am not sure how this could effectively prevent problems where the official book has incorrect information on fouls, TOs, etc.

It wouldn't matter. My point was that I wouldn't be asking the table for anything. If my asst. gave wrong info then I would simply have to live with the penalty, if any.

This is why the visiting team's score book should sit next to the official book when possible. At the very least you will not go several minutes without a problem being addressed in a timely matter. You can always refer to other books if a mistake is know by the officials and obvious. You do not just have to go with the official book at all costs. You only go only with the official book when a mistake cannot be found and when the mistake was made.

Peace

Yep, that's what the rule says, Dan.
As for whatever the scorekeeper indicates, I was taught NEVER to leave the game in the hands of the table. Plus with definite knowledge the referee can change anything in the scorebook, so it doesn't matter what the scorer says, it matters what the referee knows.

So are you saying that during a game you keep up with this kind of information yourself? # of timeouts, etc.

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that ;) )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

@ two of the DI camps I went to the past summer the clinician's were big on knowing the foul totals, foul trouble players, AP, and partners whistles. Not withstanding I have worked real hard to be able to do this for the most part without thinking to much about it. I have never tried to know or keep the teams time outs. I just always assumed that the table has this covered. After this discussion I can half way see keeping it.

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

Play by play is used @ both the High school & NCAA level. Your right the official is more likely to make a mistake. The official may think that there is a mistake. He/she can check all books and even play by play. Play by play will have knowledge of when the time outs were taken.If the official can validate the mistake then he can change it. Most likely if play by play has a error then one of the other books will have it as well.

The only time I have seen a play by play during a HS game is during the state finals or the rare occasion a school has a very good media department (only one school I can think of). Even at the college level you do not see many play by play logs. You must have some really good school programs.

Peace

We do. Your right in the fact it not as common at the HS level but increases every year. Just about ever college game I do has play by play. Your more likley not to have it @ the DIII, but usually, will just about always have it @ the DII level and will have it always @ DI.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I don't agree.

You DO have the authority to make the changes.

The timer and scorer are there to ASSIST the referee and the umpire(s), not to dictate to them. The referee has the final say, not the official scorebook.

2-11-11 "...If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise."

If I have confidence in my count, I'm going to overrule the scorer. I'll take the responsibility upon myself. That's just me, others may not do that.

2-11-11 refers to a discrepancy between two books. If you say one thing and both books agree on something else, do you still have the authority to overrule?

In my opinion, YES. Let me give you an example.
My partner reports a foul very quickly on White FOUR -- FIVE. The table mishears him because of how fast he spoke and moved his fingers. Both the home and visiting scorers record the foul as White FIVE.
Two minutes later when W5 fouls again we are told that he has fouled out. The coach complains, the kid complains, I talk to my partner and he is sure that the last two fouls that he called were not on White FIVE.
Despite both books agreeing, the referee can make the change. The bottom line is to get it right. Sometimes you have to take on some extra responsibility and even step on some toes and hurt some feelings to do that.

BTW that play really happened to me. We actually had sent W5 out of the game for a couple of minutes until the next foul occurred. It happened to be on White 45 and the scorer said that it was only his fourth. At that point, both my partner and I were sure what had happened. I was very confident that I knew his foul total. I had five for this player. The kid said it was his fifth, his coach said that it was his fifth, and the OPPOSING coach even said so. We changed the foul from 5 to 45, disqualified 45 and brought 5 back into the game. It was the right thing to do.

I had a situation similar to this one also. I reported 2 fouls back to back on 40 instead of on 50, realized the mistake a minute later, and confessed. This is good when everybody agrees. A bookkeeping mistake can certainly be corrected. BUT, if A calls time out and both books say A has no time outs, even if you are positive that A has one left, I see no rule that allows you to overrule the official scorer and not call a technical, unless you can convince him/her that a mistake has been made.
e.g. "Remember the time out just before the half, that was B's time out."

"Oh, yeah, I do remember! I charged that one to A. My bad!"

Before I swung my officiating goals to football, I was successfully implementing some of what Nevada does. It didn't take long - only 1 season to remember timeouts (sometimes including location on court when requested), team foul counts, and if star players had 4.

I echo the try it sentiment.........

I am the director of officials/#1 official/rules committee of 1 in an 11-12 year old league at a local jr. high every year. A couple of years ago a guy I farm next door to and have known all my life was the coach of a team, which was led by his nearly 6' tall daughter. Naturally, she was a dominant player. One night late in the first half, she picked up what I was positive was her
4th foul, but the table signaled 5. She went out. To make a long story short, (too late) during the 3rd quarter I remembered something, inquired at the table, and found that she only had 4 fouls. We let her back in for the
4th quarter. Doing the right thing in this case confused everybody and pleased nobody. My neighbor threatened to kill me if they lost. (it was a tie) The league director (principal) said "If this ever happens again, whatever you do, keep your mouth shut."

What I learned from this is take nothing for granted. My thought was that it must be 5 fouls, or the wronged player/coach/parents would protest. They did not.

Also, I have been scolded at higher levels for knowing how many fouls a player had. The theory is that this knowledge might subconsciously change a potential call, which is possible. But if a player picks up multiple fouls close together, especially if it is the star, how can anybody watching the game not know?

There is some truth to that. Of course, the true official is one who is of strong enough character that he will still make what he believes to be the right call despite the situation or the consequences.

You are also absolutely right that the star player knows how many fouls he has, his coach knows, the opponents certainly know, and likely everyone in the building who is a knowledgable fan knows. So why shouldn't the official know too? The fact is that he does. He is a human. Until the game is officiated by robots, there will be normal human influences in calling it.

I once spoke with a Supreme Court Justice regarding the pressures felt by them in making decisions on social issues. He acknowledged that he did the best he could to view these issue intellectually and fulfill his role as a judge, but that people do not live their lives in a vacuum and that SCJs, just like anyone else, are susceptible to these same pressures. These people live in the community, have neighbors, friends, and socialize with the people around them. Their children attend the same schools.
I learned a great deal from my talks with this person.

I believe that the same applies to sports officials. Knowledge is a good thing, just be sure to use it wisely.

I had a situation a few years ago where both teams requested a TO at (about) the same time. The TO was granted to A, but the book wrote it down as B. So, when B called a TO later in the game, they were "out". Because I knew who had requested the TOs and how they had been charged, we were able to change the book to what happened and finish a close game without a s***-storm. The tape backed me up.

I always try to keep the TOs in my head.

I'm Confused...Nothing New
 

If the Official Scorebook (or sheet in the case of an AAU Tourney) says a team has a TO left, how can a referee overrule that? If the referee has definite knowledge otherwise, proper game management would have required that official to confer with the scorer and then notify the coach. I don't see where there would ever be a problem in this case. Whether you keep track of TOs or not, I can't imagine you would tell a coach he had no timeouts left without verifying this with the table.

I disagree Neva...

2-11 Art.11 Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time out....notifying the referee @ once of any discrepancy...(for there to be a discrepancy that is found the two book would have contradicting information. Something isn't matching up. )

Some of the examples that have been given were where the official called a foul on one # and the books put the foul on another #. I agree that this is the example in which you could over rule all the books if you have definite knowledge to what # the foul is on. Especially if you are the one that called the foul.(Your argument is that I reported it on # so & so and the book wrote the wrong # down.) However this is a mistake where all books reported the foul but just on the wrong #.

So if the official book and both teams books agree on the TO information and you disagree you would go ahead and allow the time out and change all the books, even no discrepancy was found? Don't see how you could ever do this....You have no verifiable information that backs up your change.( It is possible that you forgot a time out that was taken. How could you prove the change?) You might be able to get by with this @ the lower levels , maybe @ some high school games, but NEVER @ the college level.

Great point!

Gimlet,
There is almost always a videotape, and certainly at the college level, that will back you up, if you are right. Just look at Bob Jenkin's post two above yours.

The referee administers the game, not a piece of paper.

Is this a line from the book? I do not recall seeing it.

If it is a line in the book or if it is a concept that is accepted as being in the book, I'm still concerned about the term "definite knowledge." If you tell the scorer, "You and your book are wrong. I know because I was keeping up with it," (whatever it may be in this case) the only thing I'm fairly certain of is you're going to alienate the scorer. I think you have to put at least a certain amount of trust in your crew, which includes the table, whether you think they are worthy of this trust or not.

I'm sure when someone said the B team was out of time outs someone on the B team disagreed, @ least enough for Bob to research what had happened. I do believe Bob was correct because he knew who called the time out. The book did charge a time out but to the wrong team. I would bet that the B teams book didn't match up to the home book....DISCREPENCY.





I agree that the referee admins. the game. Whenever we are going to make a correction we want to be able to validate the change. In this TO scenario the referee would come in and make a change with all other information saying otherwise, Hmmm... I know @ the collegiate level that will NEVER happen!!!! Besides @ about every college game there is play by play. If I check both books & play by play and they all agree I don't see how in the world you could make a change.

The main reason you wouldn't want to make a change like this is because we could be wrong. Its possible that we forgot just one time out. Hell, in media games you have 4 media's, 4 30's and a full. It's real easy to remember when the full was taken but its a whole lot harder to remember the 30's.

The HS game has 3 fulls and 2 30's. It would be real easy to forget or miss a time out, especially in a close heated game. Now if your down towards the end and the table tells you or confirms that a team or both teams only have 1 left, then it would be a whole lot easier to know if that time out was ever taken.

Neva, you will do whatever works for you. I just can't see changing the TO info if everything agrees. Checking TO's isn't a monitor issue so if your wrong in a close game that the called TO should've resulted in a penalty and don't penalize. Only because your sure they aren't but all the info agrees....well I'm not sure you would ever recover from that.

Keep in mind that it would be extremely rare for both books and play by play to all be wrong. If you think that the team should have time out then check the info, but if it matches then I would just accept the fact that I missed a time out

You will not find that line in the book, but you will find many officials that know when the official book has screwed up and will not continue the game with an obvious mistake. I do not agree with Nevada very often, but he is right on with this one. The problem is Nevada on one hand spends a lot of time trying to tell everyone to read the rules to the letter, but then the next case tries to find a common sense solution to a reasonable problem. You should always use common sense when possible and not allow things to take place that are obviously wrong. It is often hard to know when those mistakes are so clear, but when you do notice, do not allow the rulebook to hamstring you to doing the right thing. If you know for sure a timeout was credited incorrectly, do not continue with that mistake just because the rulebook does not give you a specific direction to solve the problem.

Peace

The bottom line is that the referee has to do what he believes is right.

If I am the referee and I believe that I am right, I am going to change the book. If my partners, the table, and everyone else says that I am incorrect, then I will probably be convinced that I am not right, and won't tell the scorer to make the change. However, if I am sure, then I'm making the change and accepting all of the responsibility for it.

This discussion has not been about whether or not I should do that, but whether or not I have the authority to do it. I contend that rules do grant the referee this power. Whether or not it is used is a matter of judgment.

I agree!!!

By play by play I guess you mean the computer programs used to track play by play.

Where in the book does it say we can go to the play-by-play to check anything?

It doesn't. It doesn't say that we can't. We can get all relevant information from the table, and our partners to make the right ruling. Its up to the referee to make the final decision. In the OP if I thought there should still be a time out available & the book disagrees I'm going to check the books and play by play before I make a determination. If the play by play has it and the books doesn't, but agrees with what I had then I'm changing on my authority. However if all of it matches then I'm not changing anything.

The rule says we can use "official courtside replay equipment".

Unless the play by play program includes video playback and is within 12 feet of the court you can't use it. The play by play has no standing.

The courtside monitor has no bearing here. Its not a reviewable instance. We are trying to correct a BOOKKEEPING error, if any. The referee will make the final decision. He/she is gathering information from both books, the table crew, and even the play by play. Then after he/she gathers all info then the ruling is soley up to the referee.

I didn't say you can use the monitor in this case - my point is even in cases that can be reviewed the play by play has no standing unless its the official equipment.

When correcting book errors the 2 scorers rely on themselves, then they rely on the official book unless the floor officials have definite knowledge. From my experience I'm not trusting the people (students) who enter the information into the computer. Not even as the tie-breaking vote.

There's some official NCAA (or at least NCAAW) writing that says the play-by-play can be used in some circumstances -- and I think this is one of them.

(I know -- this is an amazingly vague post.)

obvious.......There's another gray term.

If blue 45 enters the game for the first time in the 4th quarter, picks up a quick foul 30 seconds later, and tables buzzes and signals 5, now that's an obvious mistake. A mistake like this is usually resolved quickly. "Oops, I'm on the wrong side of the book. White 45 has 4 fouls, though."
I'm all for straightening this one out.

But midway through the 4th quarter, A calls time out, both books agree that he has none, and the only thing standing in the way of a T is that "I was keeping up with time outs by switching these marbles from my right pocket to my left," I just don't see where I have the authority (or the nerve) to try and make it stick. Since I don't have this authority, I leave the marbles at home.
(what'd he say? lost his marbles?) Hopefully, I will have enough handle on the game to catch these "obvious" mistakes, but I am not going to try to be a one man wrecking crew.

I agree with Bob, this is an amazingly vague post :)

Maybe you or Gimlet can find the ncaa bulletin?

Ok. If the books disagree and they call us over we have to make a decision. Rule 2-12 art.13 ".....when no error can be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official score book, unless the referee has knowledge that permits another decision." Checking with play by play would be part of the information the referee can obtain to gain the knowledge needed to make a decision.

The court-side equipment being within 3 to 12 of the playing court is only relevant if we were talking about one of the re viewable monitor plays. Since this is a bookkeeping error we can take whatever information we can get from the table to make a decision.

Yeahbut as I said I don't trust the people who work the play by play machine enough to permit me to change my mind.

Bob said there might have been a bulletin on this. You have it?

I've been looking for it but haven't found it. If I find it I will post the link. It came across a couple of years ago. I just can't find it in the archives. I do know that its common knowledge in the conferences I work.

I guess its up to you to trust the play by play or not. I have had a couple of instances where I went to play by play. Once in a HS game & once in a college game. Both times they were adults handling the inputing of the info. In my experiences the people who do play by play are very good @ what they do.

Personally I want to get as much info as I can before I have to make a decision. In the case of the OP where its a question of a remaining TO or not. I'm going to go with whatever matches up. It may be the visiting book and play by play, or my partners and visiting book, or official book and play by play....you get the point. I'm for sure not going to change anything if everything matches up.

You seem to have spliced 2 rules together. 2-12 deals with the timer.
2-11 deals with the scorer and has no art. 13.

NCAA Rule book BR-56

Thought we were all in the NFHS book on this one. My fault.

No need to post ia link,, even if you have a hard copy lay out the guidelines (or email me). Mens or womens?

When I glanced at the NCAA rules this year, it seemed that they had added another article in rule 2. Perhaps this shift happened last year. Correctable errors are now in 11 and I thought that they were always 2-10. Maybe I'm mistaken.

As far as the issue of an NCAA bulletin on this, I would believe that it could well be covered in the D1 handbook that is given out at those regional rules meetings.

I don't own one, have never seen one, and have only heard about what is in them second hand, but from what I hear this is the kind of stuff that is in there.

PS Does anyone know how I can get one?

I checked my Regional book. Its not covered in there. I will find it and post it.

You can access it on Eofficials web site. I don't think theWMen post theirs but do know the women has it posted.

I just downloaded it from EOfficials. It's in PDF format.

Are there separate ones for men and women?

Could you post a link?

You need your user/password. Under 2006-07 Clinic Information they have both Men's and Women's presentations available.

It's on eofficials?

I haven't seen it, I would appreciate a link to the bulletin, thanks

After you sign in go to the NCAA link, then scan the page.

As someone who is an official scorer at a D-III school (and often is the only one keeping a book at the table) all this talk about errors at the table or discrepancies between what's in the book and what the referee has in mind regarding timeouts left is making me nervous.

Don't be nervous. Just work hard to do your job and pay close attention to everything. Sounds pretty easy, you know... like running up and down the court blowing a whistle. ;)

Thanks for the reply. You're right about paying attention, of course. I'll just have to stay focused.

Early in the year I think this is a great learning experience for what is likely a young coach. He should have someone i.e. an asst. keeping track of his fouls and time-outs. However, if the official score keeper reguardless of who it is (parent or fan) is keeping the book; told him he had one I would find it hard to T, especially since the post said he heard the table tell hime he had one. The outcome of the game shouldn't be because of a book keeping error on the scorer. Either way you handle it he probably won't make that mistake again.

NFHS 2-12-6 says the scorekeeper shall " notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out."

So the coach and at least one official should be aware when the coach has used his last timeout.

Can you call a T on the table? Then why penalize the team? If the coach has recorded that he still has 1 timeout left, and the scorebook says he doesn't, who wins the argument? Are you still going to T the coach because the table isn't competant?

I agree with the "preventive game management" position. Isnt it possible that the ''Coach, you have no more time-outs left" info from the scorer could be as wrong as the OP?

Informing the coach he/she has no more times-out is part of an officials duties. It's in the rulebook but I can't quote the rule number at this moment.

Oops, read Jimgolf's post above yours.

At lower levels, who does the book could be anyone, from a parent doign their first game to an injured player or student team manager.

We have one middle school in my area that consistently has non-playing players keep their book, so when we play at their site, I take NFHS 2-11-11 very literally and ask the scorer how many fouls are on a player after each and every foul and how many time outs are left after each time out. It probably isn't foolproof, but it at least minimizes the likelihood of bad information.

As for the orginial scenario, if the official scorer tells an official a team has one time out, and then after the tean's coach calls it, informs the official, there was really zero time outs left, I'd find it difficult to whack the coach (Team-T) if they were given clearly faulty information from the official book/scorer.