David, you don't have a clue what people have been trying to tell you. That's fine too. We may suggest but we certainly can't tell you what to do. Your mind is made up anyway. Stick to your principles and t'hell with anybody that disagrees with you. I don't have a problem with that at all. I'm just stating for the record that I <b>completely</b> disagree with you.

Btw, assignors try to give out games to the officials that they feel are competent to do those games. That determination of competency is usually helped through feedback from evaluators and rules interpreters. If enough competent officials aren't available, then people that call all over the floor <b>might</b> then get the games, if they haven't been let go to give other new officials a shot. They usually won't be assigned to varsity games though. That's just too much of a risk. Most associations need bodies. That's what officials that won't listen to their evaluators/interpreters/assignors are. That's the way it works, like it or not, agree with it or not.

Gimlet, I read your post about advocating calling illegal backside screens out of your primary. That's all I need to know to get to where I'm at with my personal opinion of you and your philosophy.

People in their primary position get screened.

People in their primary position get too close to the play if it moves and they didn't anticipate the movement.

People in their primary position, focussing on what they are supposed to, may miss other things occurring in their primary, depending on what is happening and where.

And people looking at their primary are LIKELY to be in a position to see the play - not always, because of what was listed above. Likely... so a little help here and there is a good thing. And as was stated by the majority opposition party here, no official is perfect.

Have you ever even heard of the term SECONDARY? If so what do you think that means?

Dude, you really do not know much about me or my philosophies. I believe in the mechanics and I believe in team work. When someone does something outside of their job description, it causes resentment amongst crew mates and puts a higher scrutiny on the official not doing what is in their job description.

Since you asked I must give full disclosure. I work Football, Basketball and Baseball. I work college primarily in Basketball and Baseball. I was hired last year in D1 in baseball last year and likely will work again this year. I have been for years asked to work college football and finally this year I worked a few lower level college JV games to work on 7 man which is going to likely norm after this year. I say all of this because in working all these sports there is a belief to call your primary first and if you go out of your primary you better be 100% correct. If people on the crew (in any sport) do not carry their weight, they will not be there much longer. I guess the D1 mentor I referred to (who worked his first NCAA Men's Tournament this past season) also does not know what they are talking about and was an instructor at a D1 camp I attended last year is wrong and you are right. :rolleyes:

Peace

Just admit you do not trust your partners and we will all understand. All I am reading from your posts is "me, me, me, me, me." Now whose ego is getting in the way? ;)

Peace

Gimlet25id,

I care about getting the calls right. That is why I do not go looking into my partner's areas.

1) I should be taking care of my own business.
2) If you are ball watching it their area, you need to understand that they have the best look at the play 99% of the time. Maybe what you THOUGHT you saw while poaching wasn't actually what really happened.

I'm talking about ILLEGAL contact or if you will ILLEGAL excessive contact. I used the screen play because that play tends to happen quite a bit @ the collegiate level. Besides I said ILLEGAL screens that happen to place a defender on the floor.
I agree with this!!!!

Sure If you didn't see the whole play then you shouldn't have a whistle. Your still trusting your partner. In fact you might even give them first crack. Generally on secondary coverage plays.
I'm not talking about what you feel is right, but what you know is right!!!

I agree with you here. I'm sure we all have had partners who has called something on us that just wasn't there. Believe me those type of plays aren't the plays I'm referring to.

You shouldn't see everything on the floor. You will see plays in your secondary from time to time that are in your partners primary that he/she might not see. You may never save a game with a pick up on a major illegal screen. You may prevent the offended kid from retaliating.

If you are working @ the college level then you know that there are times in every game where you would be picking up plays in your secondary. That doesn't mean your out of position or that your partner is out of position just that your position happens to give you the better angle to referee the play. In fact you may have closed in on the play. The key is to be in the best possible position to make the RIGHT call.

Great thoughts. Great comments!!!

Another post that hasn't read the thread. If you had read all of the posts you would understand what I'm saying. Your basically saying that secondary coverage doesn't matter. What do you officiate if you don't have COMPETITIVE match ups in your primary. Do you take a break?

Nobody is condoling ball watching...

Wow...8 pages and counting. Good grief...There is a reason "Stay in your primary" is (or should be) part of every pre-game meeting. There is also something to be said for the attitude "if you see something that is a non-basketball play, go get it"...or as one of my Canadian buddies says - "If you see something that is for God and Country, come get it".

BUT...that really doesn't happen very often... I can think of about 5 times all last season where something NEEDED to be called...on the other hand, I can think of 12 separate calls that sent games straight to the crapper when a partner decided something outside their area needed to be called when it didn't...all 12 times involved phone calls from assignors and game film being sent out, and two of those involved officials who are no longer working games at that level (both were multiple calls in one game, even after the "Hey, what are you doing" talks at time-outs)...so feel free to go fishing outside your pond if you see a great white swimming around...but you better make sure it's a great white and not a little old harmless manatee...

Great Post!!!!!

If that were true, I would be saying I should call things in your primary, but you better stay out of mine. Conversely, I am saying help each other out. You are making a lot of gross presumptions every time you argue this point. 1) That the foul/violation that occurred and was out of my primary that I chose to call was not a foul/violation simply because it wasn't in my primary or I was in a bad position to see it, 2) that every foul or violation can ONLY be called correctly by the person whose primary it is in, and 3) that the fouls or violations I am talking about are only able to be seen partially or incompletely by the person whose primary they are in.

None of these are true for any example I have spoken of. I do not at any time refer to a call where I think I am right, but I am actually wrong. In every case, I am speaking of a play where, had my partner seen everything I did, they would 100% agree with my call, as well as just about any person reviewing the tape afterwards.

Wow!

When you are working middle school, JV and rec ball...NEWSFLASH...you are going to have bad partners.

That said, David, you have several officials...all working high school varsity, state playoffs HS varsity, college ball of varying levels, and someone who hires, trains and fires officials...telling you what you are proposing isn't going to cut it, if you want to be the best official you can be.

That isn't our collective egos talking...FYI, you're the one spouting the get it right line, as if only you can get it right...it's experience, working knowledge of how things work, and most important WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THINGS WORK WITH PARTNERS YOU TRUST!

So my advice is pay attention...I work some middle school, youth, and rec ball too, along with the higher levels that I do...I do this because I love officiating and these games give me some extra cash, and chances to work on my game without the pressure, but it also gives me the chance to do my part in making some of the officials I work with at that level better.

Some are eager to learn the RIGHT WAY to do things.

Some don't want any part of improving and insist on making calls all over the court, many of which ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN POSITION TO SEE THE ENTIRE PLAY, care to guess who was?

Gimlet, just some things.

If you don't have any match ups in your area...which is rare, especially if you do 2 whistle...you are taught, and expected, to expand your area to help. This is mainly for the C in 3 whistle.

But again, it's just like in 2 whistle where trail helps backside when lead comes ball side to take the ball below FT line extended or when lead expands to help opposite when trail has the ball high...these are expected and ways to improve court coverage. All officials on the court know that is what to do, and where they need to be looking, so in reality they are not calling out of their area, they are calling in their mechanically correct SECONDARY AREAS.

I keep reading screens, backside screens.

Properly positioned officials, that can officiate through a match up, are quite capable of officiating off ball while on ball. In fact my partner and I call those money calls, and have a little joke bet for the season on who will have the most.

You are assuming that #1) I am ball watching outside my area, and not just looking for competitive matchups farther away when I don't have any nearby, and #2) that the call I made was incorrect. You can't assume simply because I am farther away that I don't have a good view, or a complete view, of the situation.

Then why should you assume that your partner has a worse view?:rolleyes:

Why should you not assume, that perhaps they saw the entire thing perfectly well, and judged it to be legal?;)

And again, with the presumption that the calls are wrong simply because the person in the position who made the call wasn't in what the NFHS or you guys think is the only position you can see calls right from. As I said before - you folks assume that because it is not in your primary, you WILL make the wrong call, or that you can't see everything because it's not in your primary. Apparently, once my vision goes beyond 10-12 feet, everything I see is wrong. Guess I better stop driving then, because every time I try to avoid an obstacle coming at me, it's not where I see it or it's not what I think it is, or it's moving differently from what I'm seeing it moving as.

I see your point - and the fact that you have partners of varying abilities at various levels. However, to assume you are the only person who can call anything right in your primary area is incorrect. To assume every call you make outside your primary area is incorrect is incorrect. I'm not advocating throwing primaries out completely - I'm advocating less of the "Don't fish in my pond" and more "working together". To me, working together isn't saying "You call your area and i'll call mine, and if we miss something in our area, we better just stay in our area and not help each other out" - That's what this "You take care of your business and i'll take care of mine" is coming across as.

I agree with this.

And the SECONDARY areas are the other person's PRIMARY areas - and are all fair game for any calls by any official, by rule.

Most of your watching, and most of your calls, should be in your primary area, but to say you have to stay out of your secondary areas completely is wrong. Both in my opinion, and in the mechanics of coverage - otherwise they wouldn't call it a secondary area - they would call it off-limits

Same thing - why should I presume, if I see them get screened, that they saw the whole thing, when it looks to me like they couldn't in that case? I'm not saying they had a worse view - i'm saying they had a different view. Why assume that their view is better than mine? Why assume it is worse? 2 views is always better than one - I doubt there would be too many people that would disagree with this.

I totally agree with you. My comments were for the posts that suggest you should always stay in your primary and not ever get into someone else's. We know that the plays I was referring to are few and far in between, but they do happen. I work mostly 3. When working 3 there are times where it is essential for officials to know how and when to officiate their secondary areas of coverage.

A great example is when a drive to the basket is going down C's side of the paint, when the drive gets to the basket a player from the middle of the paint comes over to help and hacks the drive across the arm. Sometimes C is blocked and L sometimes has the same angle. A lot of times T has the best angle on this play because he/she is looking through the play @ the best angle

So while you are watching the same play as me, who is watching the other 6 to 8 players?

You seem to keep forgetting that part, huh?:rolleyes:

The plays you have been describing aren't secondary areas, so stop using the incorrect terms to advocate ball watching.

This is a great example...it's also a great example of a time when the T would have a LATE whistle...give the C a chance to call it, and then if they don't, go ahead and crack it...

This is getting worse. You guys are getting hit over the head with some stuff that these guys have spent years, and money, learning yet you resist. This is an example of the camper who says, "Yeah, but." Once I hear that in camp my ear perk up and I think, "This is about to get good" because that official who has an excuse is about to get the "bidness!"

LOL!!!! :eek:

Peace

It means that you're watching for illegal backside screens in your <b>SECONDARY</b> instead of watching for what you're supposed to be watching in your <b>PRIMARY</b>- which includes any illegal backside screens that may occur in your <b>PRIMARY</b>.

Dude, I can tell that your one of those guys who just likes to stir up some trouble. If you would've been paying any amount of attention you would've read that if you have nothing in your primary then instead of lounging then maybe just maybe you could cover your secondary and help you partners out...My bad, it's all about you and your area!

Let me help him out.

Tomegun--College official from several states and varsity official
Jurrassic Referee--Long time official and assignor and evaluator
Zebraman--State Final official and I believes works college ball too
BlindZebra--Varsity official (do not remember much more)
Me--Well I have already said some of what I have done
David--JV and sophomore official

Let me also add that over the years everyone on this list has disagreed with each other and I know I have had my fallings out with each one of them in some way or another. This is one thing that is very clear we all agree on without wavering. I could be wrong, but I will take my chances with the people here that have shown they know something about officiating, then a person that has no desire to move up (his words, not mine) and thinks he knows better than the conventional wisdom of very experienced official.

Peace

Dude, you don't know me. You never will.

And you got into "secondaries" to cover your azz after telling everybody that you'd go looking for illegal backside screens everywhere, not just in a secondary only <b>if</b> there's nothing going on in your primary.

The good thing is that it's starting to look like you may be actually learning something from some of the posters here, even though you'll never admit it.

Bad example.

The L has secondary coverage on a drive from C on C's side of the paint. Not the T. That is why the L "pinches the paint" if help is absolutely needed. But honestly, the C needs to work himself so he doesn't get straightlined on a drive and the C needs to make that call. The C should have worked to see the gap between the offense and defense and get that call. That is not the T's secondary area.

By definition, there are still several players on the T's side of the floor (or else the L would have rotated to the C's side earlier). Therefore the T has a job to do in this case which does NOT involve getting sucked into ball-watching the drive.

Again with the not reading - I never said I was watching the same play - I have been talking about stuff off ball, out of my primary. In 2 man, this means you are watching the ball (since it is in your primary), and I am watching something off ball, outside my primary, since there is nothing going on of any consequence in my primary (or I wouldn't habe looked outside in the first place, likely...)

Your right I don't know you and you don't know what your talking about. I NEVER , NEVER said to go looking for anything!!!!!! If I said to go looking for illegal backside screens everywhere then find it and quote me. I gave a
scenerio in regards to a backside screen that the C could pick up since it was in his secondary. Now you can take my words twist them how ever you want. I stuck to my point from the beginning. The point is THERE ARE TIMES YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE A CALL OUT OF YOUR PRIMARY. To say that you should not ever come out of your primary is just simply incorrect!!!!!! This was the original question on the OP.

Last time I checked this is a open forum. The OP had a valid question. To say that this is BLACK and WHITE and that you stay in your area and I stay in my area is incorrect.

Actually, they are. Since anything that isn't my primary (in 2 man) is my secondary, and anything that isn't your primary (in 2 man) is your secondary. Otherwise, there's portions of the court that aren't covered by anyone.

Again, I agree.

And therein we have an argument which has caused numerous problems throughout history in numerous venues.

This is the way we do it, so it must be the best and only way to do it.

Nothing like being open to different ideas. Experience wins every time. So experienced officials never make bad calls. Experienced officials never get screened. Experienced officials NEVER call outside their primary because since they are perfect and their partners are perfect, they never have to worry about anyone missing a call - because no one does.

Seems like a pretty clear statement to me.

I agree with this for the most part . Good to hear "pinch the paint" C should work to get the best outside /in angle. However if the drive happens quickly and away from the C the angle sometimes can't be seen either by C or L. Again, sometimes if T has most of the players in front of him and refereeing outside in the T could have a very good look @ this play. I didn't say this play was T's secondary because it's not. I gave this as a example why you might have to get a call that is out of your primary. However lets take T out of it and say L gets the foul which is his secondary. It's still a call that needs to be gotten that technically is in C's primary.

What are you talking about?

Lead has the paint to the sideline on his side, beneath the FT line extended.

Trail has EVERYTHING ELSE.

Those are the primaries.

There are prescribed areas of overlap, and mechanics that allow SPECIFIC secondary areas.

In no way does that mean everything not in my primary is my secondary.:rolleyes:

David,

Do not twist what I said. It is not about "new ideas." It is about what works and what has not changed because it works. You are not in a position to start changing things because you do not like the system. Neither am I or most of the people I listed in a position to do what we want to. But when someone tells you a procedure and they are much more experience, it shows a lot of ignorance on your part to say, "You have no idea what you are talking about." Well when you get on the NF committee or the CCA committee, then maybe you will have some credibility on this issue. The current system has worked in my 10 years when used properly and your ideas are not new. Your "new ideas" have been shown as not effective. I should have known better when you tell all of us what the NBA officials are doing wrong. I guess you have credibility to know.

Peace

Wow, this went bad fast - time to circle the wagons.

No one has ever said that you are not to call out of your primary what people have said is that you are best served by calling your primary first and if there is an elephant out there somewhere and you are 150% sure it is an elephant then call it. But you are best served as an individual and a crew to concentrate on your primary are first.

But in a two man crew the chances of all 10 players being out of your primary are pretty slim, so you will have action to concentrate on in your primary.
But per chance if everyone did run to your partners primary your job (the way I have been trained and called for 25 yrs) is that you take the next available or nearest matchup to assist your partner, excluding his primary match up.

Another thing that is very different is that most of us are discussing three man which is different all together from two man
So that we are talking about areas of coverage that are more defined and the transfer of coverage of an areaa is different because you are rotating from side to side as lead and center to trail - this makes coverage of your area even more important.

There are many ways of doing things and the mechanics of the game are always evolving, they have changed philosophys several times in the last five years, not to mention the different conference philosophys on mechanics - So when people who are in a position to know what assignors at the upper levels are looking for in officials who wish to advance it is a good idea to take heed and listen to their advice, rather than be the camper who says "yes but" and defend a position that no matter how technically right you might be you can not win because Diane Plas, Ed Bilik, or Mr. Lavender, want you to do it this way on their floors, in their conferences.

That is the way you have to do things.
It isn't personal it's business!

Drinkeii, you are obviously very passionate about this officiating world we all live in...sometimes that passion can lead us to go to ridiculous lengths to try to defend our positions. That would be where you have gone in this thread...as has been stated several times now, there WILL be times when something outside my primary area has to be called - for the good of the game. But those times will be few and far between and I absolutely should NOT be going out and looking for things to call in my partner's primary...think of it this way - there are three types of fouls: 1) Oh, that's a foul...2) Oh my, that's a foul...and 3) OH MY GOD!! That's a foul...#3 is absolutely the ONLY one you should ever have to go and get in a partner's primary area...leave the rest of them alone and trust that your partner is taking care of his/her business.

So where does "YOU CAN'T F'ING DO THAT??!!" fall in this ordering? Between 2 & 3? after 3?

Exactly the same thing... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - problem is it not "unbroke". Why would the NFHS constantly have points of emphasis for the rules, if everything was going just fine. Why would it have moved from 2 man to 3 man for the most part at this point if it worked? Why have some sports gone to instant replay if what we have worked? Why are they changing, updating, adding, and removing several rules every year? I guess they're not perfect, just like the mechanics aren't.

I was very careful not to use the word "new" - i'm sure I don't have new ideas. I'm just saying that because that is the way that someone some where said works and that, not because it is presumably the best way, is why we are doing it.

I don't claim to have any more credibility than having worked for a while. You say 10 years - I have been reffing sports for 8. So you have 2 more years than me, and a job with more responsibility in that regard (assignor). I'm not saying you have less credibility, or that your system is bad. I am saying there is more than one way to do something, and sometimes yours works, sometimes mine works. As someone else said, even the mechanics are constantly evolving.

If everyone simply did stuff because "that's what everyone does" and "that's what works", we'd be in an awful lot of trouble.

No, basketball is not a life or death, or life-changing type of activity. But to do something simply because and only for the reason that someone told them it is the right thing to do is wrong. Hopefully, you can think more for yourself than to just do what "someone", or several "someones" told you to do. I wouldn't expect you to do what I say. But I wouldn't expect you to just throw out my ideas, or anyone elses, simply because "that isn't how it is done".

The world would cease to ever get better if we always just said "That's just the way we've always done it, so it's the way we're always going to do it.". Better throw three-man out the window - two man was perfect.

Ha...you say tomato, I say tu-mah-toe...my #3 and your vulgar statement would be the same thing - you just happen to be more uncouth than I...:D

I just got back from a college game and guess what? Nobody made a call that was right in front of someone else. It was a good game too. The home team was up by 19 at halftime and it went into overtime (It is too early in the season for that). We had a little bit of everything in the game and I finally (it has only been two games, but some would say that is a long time for me :D) called my first T in Miss. :D A kid blocked a shot and wanted to get up in the kid's face. He said, "But I didn't say anything." Yeah, whatever WHACK!

David & Gimlet, many people have put a lot of work into making this 3-man system the best it can be - for right now. After 6 years of MS and JV ball you can't possibly have a good enough handle on this thing to know something better to do. That is what I believe.

Good to hear you had a good game.! "T" already & a OT! To address your comment...I have worked longer then six years and I don't work MS or any JV ball. I work @ all 3 levels of College basketball. My original comment to Dave was that it's not black and white that there are times that you would have to make a call out of your primary....which I believe all of my posts details. I also said that the mechanics end of calling 3 is there for a reason. It gives the officials a guideline to be in the best possible position to have the best look @ any given play to make the best possible call. My answer to Dave's OP is that most of the time you stay in your primary, but there are times you have to come out to get plays (WHALES). However rarely it might be it still happens. Then most of the posts that came in were suggesting that somehow thats condoling "ball watching"

Well said. Exactly the point I've been trying to get across.

Congrads!!!! It sounds like you give a lot of time to officiate. I'm sure your experience's far outway mine. Your comment agree's with what I've been saying all along. If you come out and into your partners primary you better be 100% correct. I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!

And that is the statement made by anyone who is used to a system and refuses to look at possible changes to it for whatever reason.

Just because it is the way we've always done it doesn't make it the right way to do it or the best way to do it or the only way to do it.

I'm not advocating major changes - I'm saying we need to be willing to call (and accept calls) from partners that are outside their arbitrarily defined area of responsibility. As I said, if the mechanics were so important to the integrity of the game, they would include them in the rules, and say "This official has the right to call anything in their area, and nothing outside their area". They define everything else very exactly in the rules, and if it is THAT important, maybe it should be in there. Or maybe, because it isn't that important, or because they feel officials should have the right to call anything anywhere (and I'm not saying you should all the time...but the option is there if necessary), that is what the rules say. Seriously - if it is THAT important that you stay only in your area, have them put it in the rules. Then no one would call outside their area because they're not allowed to.

And don't come back with "Go ahead and call stuff everywhere, see what happens" - that is just a silly response.

I'm curious as to what the outcome of ONE game where no one called outside their area has to do with this discussion?

David, go ahead and call stuff everywhere and see what happens.

Seriously.

Give it a try and let us know how it works out.

That definitely explains the reason this conversation went the way it did - people not reading posts, understanding them, and replying in an intelligent manner. At no time have I ever advocated this. However, apparently that is what you think occasionally reaching out into areas the mechanics-gods have defined as off limits (or the basketball will explode, mass chaos everywhere, end-of-the-world stuff will happen) means - call everything everywhere.

I think I'm done with this thread.

The board in general is very useful for clearing things up. However, when people make decisions based simply on "that is the way we do things", I have a bit of a problem with that. I have with everything I have done, including several emergency service volunteer jobs I have been involved in for close to 20 years, teaching, and several other things. Just because it is the way it has always been done, doesn't make it right. Period. End of story. Thanks for the input.

David, it is not about people not reading your posts. They just do not agree with your point of view. I think people do have the right to disagree with you.

That might be a good idea.

The reality is you have not listened to anything others have said at all. I cannot speak for everyone, but I really do not care how long things have been done. All I know is the mechanics work. If you do not think they do, maybe this is the reason you are still working with the people you are. I do not it is a free country and you should do what you feel is best. No one here is going to work with you or hire you. You do things you want to and I wish you the best. But stop trying to tell us what we believe and why we believe what we do. No one has even claimed they are using mechanics because that is what we have done for years. Not every idea is a good one and not everyone has to accept your point of view because you spout it to the world. I do not care what they did 30 years ago. I just know that what we are doing right now works.

Peace

Gimlet, are you born and raised in Indiana. I'm a Hoosier, born in Richmond.

Homegrown Hoosier born, raised, & raising my family in the GREAT city of Richmond, IN.

Do you still live in Richmond? Should I know you?

Funny, where I come from, every year we get a rules book and a copy of THE OFFICIALS MANUAL so that whole "If it were so important it would be in the rules," BS just doesn't fly...for those of us capable of understanding, that means it is considered just as important as the rules.

No, I haven't lived there for 18 years. I would be surprised if you didn't know someone in my family. What year did you graduate from high school? Send me an email.