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fan Thu Nov 02, 2006 07:56am

Lane spaces?
 
Did NFHS use to allow 8 players in the lane on foul shots? If so, when did they go down to only allowing 6 players in the lane spaces?

Thanks

Ref in PA Thu Nov 02, 2006 07:59am

Yes, the NFHS did allow more than six to occupy the lane spaces. However, this rule was changes two or three years ago. It has been in place at least two years.

fan Thu Nov 02, 2006 08:06am

Does anyone know the reason for this?

Thanks

ChuckElias Thu Nov 02, 2006 08:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fan
Does anyone know the reason for this?

Thanks

Fewer bodies in the lane means less chance for rough play during rebounding. That simple.

Rick Durkee Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:24am

2003-2004
 
The NFHS changed the rule for the 2003-2004 season.

Chuck is exactly right, but the comments that NFHS published to accompany the rule change adds just a little more, "...This change will help reduce the amount of rough play during free throws and may provide the defense a rebounding advantage (one that may have diminished with the return to the 'rim' restrictions). Fewer players on the lane should also make the free-throw situation easier to officiate."

jritchie Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:27am

NCAA is experimenting with moving them up the lane now like the women and i hope it makes it's way into NFHS too...this will move everyone away from the basket and pretty much guarantee a defensive rebound, especially since they can't move till it hits the rim! Will be a great addition!

ChuckElias Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jritchie
NCAA is experimenting with moving them up the lane now like the women and i hope it makes it's way into NFHS too...

Last year, the FED completed a study on the number of rebounds credited to the offense and the defense during missed FTs. (If I recall correctly, it was done in Kentucky HS games.) As a result of that study, the rules committee basically said that it was satisfied with the balance of play during FT rebounding and would not consider any changes to FT positioning or restrictions again in the near future, unless some additional research showed the balance of play had shifted.

So. . . don't hold your breath. :)

jritchie Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:16pm

seems like when ncaa does something it always seems to trickle down in some aspect of the game! they have to change something, so they can sell new rule books every year! :)

Adam Thu Nov 02, 2006 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jritchie
seems like when ncaa does something it always seems to trickle down in some aspect of the game! they have to change something, so they can sell new rule books every year! :)

Not sure if they still do it, as they've actually started moving in the direction of fewer "adaptations," but Iowa girls started doing this when they first changed the rule on the number of players in the lane spaces. Of course, here in Colorado, it's all the same, boys and girls. :)

refnrev Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:32pm

IMHO this was a good rules change. It cleaned things up in the lane a lot and makes it easier to officiate.

tjones1 Sat Nov 04, 2006 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Last year, the FED completed a study on the number of rebounds credited to the offense and the defense during missed FTs. (If I recall correctly, it was done in Kentucky HS games.) As a result of that study, the rules committee basically said that it was satisfied with the balance of play during FT rebounding and would not consider any changes to FT positioning or restrictions again in the near future, unless some additional research showed the balance of play had shifted.

So. . . don't hold your breath. :)

These are the results I heard too.

Fritz Mon Nov 06, 2006 03:39pm

Speaking of lane spaces, can you help a 2nd yr (long time baseball) guy out?

Had a trainer remind us newbies to make sure the players aren't touching any part of the colored boundaries between the lane spaces on free throws, but I see that all the time when I watch games on the tube.

So, are players allowed to have a foot on the line (front or side) as long as they don't go over the edge or not? If they are allowed to do that, then what's the point with the larger marking between the first two lane spaces?

:confused:

ChuckElias Mon Nov 06, 2006 03:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz
Had a trainer remind us newbies to make sure the players aren't touching any part of the colored boundaries between the lane spaces on free throws, but I see that all the time when I watch games on the tube.

The games on the tube are almost always NCAA or NBA. In both of those rulesets, it is legal for the player closest to the basket to stand on the neutral zone block. This is not legal in NFHS, however.

Adam Mon Nov 06, 2006 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz
Speaking of lane spaces, can you help a 2nd yr (long time baseball) guy out?

Had a trainer remind us newbies to make sure the players aren't touching any part of the colored boundaries between the lane spaces on free throws, but I see that all the time when I watch games on the tube.

So, are players allowed to have a foot on the line (front or side) as long as they don't go over the edge or not? If they are allowed to do that, then what's the point with the larger marking between the first two lane spaces?

:confused:

In NFHS rules, they are not allowed to touch the painted lane or spacer lines. That includes the "block". In college, they are allowed to stand on the block (I believe). That explains why you're seeing something different on TV than you are being told by your trainers.

Fritz Mon Nov 06, 2006 04:30pm

Thanks!! Still working on picking up little things like that. It is strange when you come from a sport that you are very comfortable with and cross over to one that you aren't nearly up to speed on. I get frustrated with myself for not knowing things like that, but I am certainly having fun!

ATXCoach Mon Nov 06, 2006 05:09pm

For what it's worth (answer - nothing) - I thought that I heard the announcers say in an NBA game I watched this weekend that they no longer were allowed to stand on the block.

As a coach, i can't stand the rim vs. release change from a few years ago. I have no problem with less players or moving the girls (maybe boys too) out of the low spot. BUT It seems that there is more contact now as all the rebounders go crashing into each other. Prior to the rule change there was strategy and fundamentals (both offensive and defensive), but not so much anymore.

BktBallRef Mon Nov 06, 2006 07:07pm

Coach, before the change, you had kids crashing into the lane on the release and then the shot goes in. Not anymore. So how can there be more contact now when that's been eliminated? :confused:

ATXCoach Mon Nov 06, 2006 07:22pm

It used to be 1 on 1 blocking out, the ball would hit the rim, and whoever had the best position won.

Now, everyone waits to see the ball hit and if it bounces off in the middle of the lane, 6 players (shooter) all go crashing into each other. It also takes away the advantage of the Defense, but since nobody makes freethrows very well anymore, maybe that was the intent.

As I stated in my first post, there was more strategy and technique when playing release (i.e. trying to get position) versus playing rim where I feel it's just a mosh pit.

I have no numbers to back up my thoughts, just the perception I get on the sideline

Nevadaref Mon Nov 06, 2006 07:31pm

Studies are still being conducted in this area.


2007 NCAA Men’s Approved Experimentation
The committee will collect data on the elimination of the first lane space
nearest the basket on each side of the lane, thus the defensive player shall
line up above the neutral zone (block). The present second, third and fourth
lane spaces on each side of the lane shall be used during free-throw attempts.
Besides feedback from coaches, officials and coordinators of officials, the
committee will be looking at the frequency distribution of defensive and
offensive rebounding after a missed free throw and the number of fouls and
violations that occur during experimental games.
This experimental rule is required to be used in certified games. In
addition, the rule should be used during exhibition games in all three
divisions. Because the experiment is only required for certified games,
which applies to Division I only, feedback from Divisions II and III is
particularly important during these preseason games.

rainmaker Mon Nov 06, 2006 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
It used to be 1 on 1 blocking out, the ball would hit the rim, and whoever had the best position won.

Now, everyone waits to see the ball hit and if it bounces off in the middle of the lane, 6 players (shooter) all go crashing into each other. It also takes away the advantage of the Defense, but since nobody makes freethrows very well anymore, maybe that was the intent.

As I stated in my first post, there was more strategy and technique when playing release (i.e. trying to get position) versus playing rim where I feel it's just a mosh pit.

I have no numbers to back up my thoughts, just the perception I get on the sideline

Coach, what level are you working at? Are your players not listening when you talk to them about trying to get position?

Scrapper1 Mon Nov 06, 2006 09:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
I have no numbers to back up my thoughts

Seems like NFHS does have numbers to back up their thoughts.

ATXCoach Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
Coach, what level are you working at? Are your players not listening when you talk to them about trying to get position?

I work with girls ages 12 to 18. My players listen just fine. The problem, in my opinion, is that waiting on the ball to hit the rim on a free throw takes the fundamental out of the blocking out process.

My view from the sideline is that when you play release, the low players (defense) step towards the shooter, the offensive players one space up step to the basket. Both the offense and defense are trying to get position on there side of the floor. The third player blocks out the shooter. (As I stated before, I'm all for limiting the number of players in the lane to 5 plus the shooter - that is a good idea). So in summary, when playing the release, there is fundamentals involved.

When playing rim, when the shot comes off the rim, 6 players react to the flight of the ball, sometimes all meeting together in the middle of the lane. Futher, it's next to impossible to get to the shooter quick enough to block out legally .

I'm just a bigger fan of playing release and never once thought it to be to rough. I guess I'm of the minority opinion on that one.

rainmaker Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
My view from the sideline is that when you play release, the low players (defense) step towards the shooter, the offensive players one space up step to the basket. Both the offense and defense are trying to get position on there side of the floor. The third player blocks out the shooter.

I"m not a coach or a player, so if this sounds like a stupid question, it's only because it is! But why can't they do those things when the ball hits the rim?

ATXCoach Tue Nov 07, 2006 01:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
I"m not a coach or a player, so if this sounds like a stupid question, it's only because it is! But why can't they do those things when the ball hits the rim?

One of the techniques to rebounding is forming a triangle around the rim - both sides and the front. Works better in men's ball because they play above the rim, but the concept is the same for womens. When playing the release, if all 3 defenders do their jobs correctly, the offensive players don't really have a good opportunity to get the rebound. As the players progress in experience you don't get the "over the back" (yes I know there is no such rule, but you know what i mean) calls. The work for positiong is done before the ball ever gets to the rim.

When playing rim, all six players (counting the shooter) are reacting to the bounce of the ball off the rim. Yes the first steps are the same, but position is never really established. Any rebound in the middle of the lane has the chance to have six people jumping for the rebound. It just seems to me that more players bump together than when playing the release.

I will concede that the 1 on 1 contact may be less severe, but the chance for multiple players colliding at the point of the rebound is increased when playing rim. As I think I stated, I think the change had less to due with excessive contact, and more to do with falling free throw percentages. Shooting fouls are worse for the offense than retaining possesion of the ball for a throw in in many cases these days.

So I guess to answer your question directly - they can't do the rebounding techniques when playing rim because the time to establish positioning is cut from say 2 seconds to .5 seconds.

rainmaker Tue Nov 07, 2006 02:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
One of the techniques to rebounding is forming a triangle around the rim - both sides and the front. Works better in men's ball because they play above the rim, but the concept is the same for womens. When playing the release, if all 3 defenders do their jobs correctly, the offensive players don't really have a good opportunity to get the rebound. As the players progress in experience you don't get the "over the back" (yes I know there is no such rule, but you know what i mean) calls. The work for positiong is done before the ball ever gets to the rim.

When playing rim, all six players (counting the shooter) are reacting to the bounce of the ball off the rim. Yes the first steps are the same, but position is never really established. Any rebound in the middle of the lane has the chance to have six people jumping for the rebound. It just seems to me that more players bump together than when playing the release.

I will concede that the 1 on 1 contact may be less severe, but the chance for multiple players colliding at the point of the rebound is increased when playing rim. As I think I stated, I think the change had less to due with excessive contact, and more to do with falling free throw percentages. Shooting fouls are worse for the offense than retaining possesion of the ball for a throw in in many cases these days.

So I guess to answer your question directly - they can't do the rebounding techniques when playing rim because the time to establish positioning is cut from say 2 seconds to .5 seconds.

I see. But couldn't you just use a different set of "positions"? I get that there's less jockeying time, but that might be to your advantage if your players are trying to get positions other than the middle of the lane, especially if the other team is headed only for the ball. But what do I know?

ATXCoach Tue Nov 07, 2006 02:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
I see. But couldn't you just use a different set of "positions"? I get that there's less jockeying time, but that might be to your advantage if your players are trying to get positions other than the middle of the lane, especially if the other team is headed only for the ball. But what do I know?

I don't know if I have read your question correctly, but I'll try.

On release - you try to get and hold positioning
On rim - You still try to win the first step, but it pretty much breakdown into chasing the ball

The advantage is to the offense when playing rim instead of release. So yes it is to my advantage half the time. But the argument that less contact occurs seems to be off base from my observations from the sideline. I think it's actually the opposite.

But what do I know, according to some of the posters on this board, I'm just a dumb coach who lowers the opinions of referees about many other coaches :)

rainmaker Tue Nov 07, 2006 02:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
I don't know if I have read your question correctly, but I'll try.

On release - you try to get and hold positioning
On rim - You still try to win the first step, but it pretty much breakdown into chasing the ball

The advantage is to the offense when playing rim instead of release. So yes it is to my advantage half the time. But the argument that less contact occurs seems to be off base from my observations from the sideline. I think it's actually the opposite.

But what do I know, according to some of the posters on this board, I'm just a dumb coach who lowers the opinions of referees about many other coaches :)

Well, you know more than me, that's for sure! You've got me curious now, and I"ll have to watch over my next few games, and see what I can see.


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