You make the call.

[Gimlet25id]

High School Game

After halftime the first horn has sounded. All 5 players come out to start the 3rd quarter. The second horn sounds . As the offficial is getting ready to administer the throw in, the coach from the "A" team informs the officials that one of the players #32 has already played 6 quarters between the JV and Varsity games and can't play anymore and that he needs to sub # 32. The oppossing coach says that a sub can't be made without penalty because a sub wasn't ready and didn't report before the first horn. What do you do by rule?

[Scrapper1]

By rule, we as officials aren't concerned with the number of quarters a player has played. By rule, we are not concerned with the eligibility (due to playing time, or grades, or any "off-the-court" issues) of any player. By rule, the kid can't be subbed out unless a sub had already reported before the warning horn sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission.

In real life, I'm going to appeal to Coach B's better nature and ask him not to wreck a kid's future eligibility for no reason. (He'd have to be a real jerk to refuse.) In real life, if there WAS a sub at the table in time, then I'm going to "realize" that the wrong kid subbed out.

If neither of those options is available, I think the kid has to be considered a player until the first opportunity to sub.

[Nevadaref]

1. There is no 6 quarter rule in the NFHS book, but there may be in your local area or league.

2. In my area we are instructed that the game officials are not to worry about such a requirement. The school administrators handle it and if they can't agree, they take it to the state office. We simply play the game. However, your area may be different and you have to follow what your people tell you to enforce. IOW it may be your job to deal with such a thing where you are.

3. There is no penalty in the book for a late substitution. The official is simply not supposed to allow it. What if the official does allow it?

4. There are ways around this issue that fit within the rules. The coach may request and be granted a time-out prior to the ball becoming live to start the quarter and then he may legally substitute for his player. This would prevent a forfeit or the kid being punished by the league for playing illegally.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. There is no 6 quarter rule in the NFHS book, but there may be in your local area or league.

2. In my area we are instructed that the game officials are not to worry about such a requirement. The school administrators handle it and if they can't agree, they take it to the state office. We simply play the game. However, your area may be different and you have to follow what your people tell you to enforce. IOW it may be your job to deal with such a thing where you are.

3. There is no penalty in the book for a late substitution. The official is simply not supposed to allow it. What if the official does allow it?

4. There are ways around this issue that fit within the rules. The coach may request and be granted a time-out prior to the ball becoming live to start the quarter and then he may legally substitute for his player. This would prevent a forfeit or the kid being punished by the league for playing illegally.

The time out is the key in this play. We don't want the player to sacrifice his/her next game. So we need a sub legally. The only was is to tell the coach of the A team to call a time out and replace the player.

The play that I listed happened to one of my friends in a high school game. He assessed a T. On the basis that the opposing coach had a valid argument. I wanted to post this thinking this could come up somewhere else.

Time out allows subs to come in that weren't in the game before time ran of the clock.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

The time out is the key in this play. We don't want the player to sacrifice his/her next game. So we need a sub legally. The only was is to tell the coach of the A team to call a time out and replace the player.

The play that I listed happened to one of my friends in a high school game. He assessed a T. On the basis that the opposing coach had a valid argument. I wanted to post this thinking this could come up somewhere else.

Time out allows subs to come in that weren't in the game before time ran of the clock.

I'd have to say that your friend was incorrect to assess a technical foul. Technical fouls are based upon a specific rule being broken, not upon whether or not a coach has a valid argument.

In checking the book for you (and your friend), the ONLY rules basis that I could possibly see for assessing a T here are:

10-1-5 . . . Allow the game to develop into an actionless contest, this includes the following and similar acts:
...
b. Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play.

and

10-3-6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.


Both of those would be a stretch.

So I must ask, to whom did your friend charge the technical foul? Was it to the player, to the team, to the head coach?

[Gimlet25id]

There was no way by rule he could have assessed a T. However he assessed a administrative team T for failure to have all the players returning to the floor @ the same time.

[26 Year Gap]

This response dedicated to Tony. Or is it Tiny?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

There was no way by rule he could have assessed a T. However he assessed a administrative team T for failure to have all the players returning to the floor @ the same time.

I agree with you about the T, and furthermore while I don't believe that his rationale was a correct one since all the team members who were legally in the game at the time did return to the floor at approximately the same time, the official tried to do what he thought was best for the game. In other words he made an error while trying to do the right thing. I'm not going to condemn an official for that.

If I were the assignor of this official, I would advise the official that in the future if this ever comes up again that he should charge a time-out to the offending team and get someone in there to replace the player during that stoppage, if the league truly cares about this administrative regulation. Then I would make him work a freshmen girls games for me next week as his punishment!

[BoomerSooner]

The rules allow for a team to play with less than 5 players (without my books with me so not sure if playing with less than 5 requires having all but 4 DQ'ed), but I'm thinking the substitute at the table requirement is necessary for a sub to enter, but is there anything that prevents the player from going to the bench and A playing with 4 until the next substitution opportunity (if smart a foul upon the ball being inbounded). Just thinking through options.

[Gimlet25id]

Can't play with 4 if there are players available. in this play the only option available to the coach who wants to sub after the first horn is to call a time out.

[Back In The Saddle]

Eligibility based on the number of quarters played is a "point not specifically covered in the rules" and the interplay between eligibility requirements and substitution rules cannot logically be inferred from the written rules.

If, in this case, rather than eligibility issues, the player were to be injured, blood was discovered on his uniform, or the scorer suddenly notified you that he had five fouls, there would be no timeout required to remove him from the game. So why require one in the case of an eligibility issue?

Though it doesn't address this issue specifically, I consider 10.5.4 situation (a) as a precedent as to how the rules committee wishes to handle a situation where a player is in the game inadvertently, and should not be. "As soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed."

A little elasticity is a good thing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The rules allow for a team to play with less than 5 players (without my books with me so not sure if playing with less than 5 requires having all but 4 DQ'ed), but I'm thinking the substitute at the table requirement is necessary for a sub to enter, but is there anything that prevents the player from going to the bench and A playing with 4 until the next substitution opportunity (if smart a foul upon the ball being inbounded). Just thinking through options.

A team must play with five if they have five who are eligible, however there are reasons other than DQ which would make a team member ineligible to enter the game.

For example, a team has only six on the roster. The coach subs in A6 who has four fouls for A2. During the ensuing throw-in and prior to the ball being touched inbounds, A6 is charged with his fifth foul. The clock correctly did not start. Clearly A6 must leave the game, but since no time has come off the clock A2 cannot return to the game. In this situation Team A would have to play with only four players until the next opportunity to substitute. There would be no penalty to Team A for this.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Eligibility based on the number of quarters played is a "point not specifically covered in the rules" and the interplay between eligibility requirements and substitution rules cannot logically be inferred from the written rules.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

If, in this case, rather than eligibility issues, the player were to be injured, blood was discovered on his uniform, or the scorer suddenly notified you that he had five fouls, there would be no timeout required to remove him from the game. So why require one in the case of an eligibility issue?

Because all of the reasons that you gave are clearly stated in the NFHS rules book as reasons that a player shall be directed to leave the game. There is no such provision for a kid who has played too many quarters by state or league adoption. I suppose that you could covertly tell the kid to untuck his jersey and then direct him to leave the game for wearing his uniform improperly. This situation calls for some creativity from the referee.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Though it doesn't address this issue specifically, I consider 10.5.4 situation (a) as a precedent as to how the rules committee wishes to handle a situation where a player is in the game inadvertently, and should not be. "As soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed."

That example applies to a player who is erroneously permitted to be in the game although his participation is contrary to the NFHS rules. It has nothing to do with his eligibility due to grades, age, or other school/league regulations.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

A little elasticity is a good thing.

Yeah, on our part. However, I have seen a team be forfeited BY THE LEAGUE because a jv kid played the first 20 seconds of the 4th quarter. So while we can sometimes be lenient, the league office may not be. Therefore, I recommend that we do what we can to get it right.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree.


Because all of the reasons that you gave are clearly stated in the NFHS rules book as reasons that a player shall be directed to leave the game. There is no such provision for a kid who has played too many quarters by state or league adoption. I suppose that you could covertly tell the kid to untuck his jersey and then direct him to leave the game for wearing his uniform improperly. This situation calls for some creativity from the referee.


That example applies to a player who is erroneously permitted to be in the game although his participation is contrary to the NFHS rules. It has nothing to do with his eligibility due to grades, age, or other school/league regulations.


Yeah, on our part. However, I have seen a team be forfeited BY THE LEAGUE because a jv kid played the first 20 seconds of the 4th quarter. So while we can sometimes be lenient, the league office may not be. Therefore, I recommend that we do what we can to get it right.

I really like the untucked jersey idea.

[Jurassic Referee]

Why is everyone so worried about taking on the responsibility for a coach's screw-up that has got absolutely nothing to do with the officials in the first place?

Keep your nose out of places where it doesn't belong.