Submitting the roster before the game
 

This is a very nit-picky question. It was discussed ad nauseum on an IAABO interpreter's conference call last season. The only reason I bring it up now is that I was just going through an old "refresher" exam and this question was on it. So I thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

Team A submits their roster before the game. The ref counts 11 players warming up for Team A. When he checks the book, there are 12 names listed. Coach A tells the ref that one player is coming late from another school function but will be here to play at some point. This has happened to everybody, right?

Now, FED 3-2-1 says that the names of all team members must be submitted 10 minutes prior to the game. Fine. But 4-34-4 defines a team member as "a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player."

Now, the kid who is running late is not in uniform and is not eligibe to become a player, since he's not even at the game site. By rule, should we make the coach remove the kid's name from the roster? This would mean (obviously) that when he does show up in uniform and eligible to become a player, his name would have to be added to the book at the cost of a technical foul.

I can't believe that's the intent of the rule. But as written, is this the conclusion we have to come to?

The rule says that all team members must be listed. It doesn't say that additional names can't also be listed.

Let it go.

No.

If the player is not going to play and is in the book, why would you care? In my opinion our only concern should be players that are in the book and are going to play and there information is incorrect.

I would ask the coach about the missing player. I know when working varsity games and sometimes tournaments, there are players sometimes missing because of injuries or a player are a lower level players that will be on the bench if needed for the varsity game. I do not think having the name removed is using good common sense.

Peace

Chuck, by rule we should. I believe the loop hole here is that the player is not even at the game site; thus, he/she is not legally bench personnel unless they are in uniform and eligible to play from my interpretation. So, I would not have the coach remove the name.

How do you know the kid is not in uniform? Do you have definitive information the kid is not at the game site? What, you said you're taking the coach's word for it? How often do you take a coach's word?

I agree with Bob, let it go. It seems like it would be well outside of our jurisdiction.

What Bob said.

Hey!

:D

Hey, what?

I totally agree with JRut, if this player does play it will probably be in the last couple minutes of a blowout game. Use good judgment and common sense the game is supposed to be for the kids...right.

I agreed with Bob, too.

And I agreed first :p (That typing course is really paying dividends...)

Because you counted the players in uniform and compared that to the number of players listed in the book?

Other than that I agree with Bob too. :)

Chuck,
What if the trainer arrived to the gamesite late and a kid must sit in the lockerroom for the first quarter to receive taping or treatment? Are people saying that this kid is not a legal team member because he is not on the bench? What if a team took two vans to a game with half of the team in each vehicle and one of them got a flat tire and is running 45 minutes late?
What if something strange were to happen and this game were to be suspended and continued at a later date? In that case a kid who had a hurt ankle may have recovered and be well enough to participate. For this reason a smart coach would always list his entire team in the book, so that he would not be penalized for adding this kid later.

Look at MLB. They must submit a 25 man roster at the start of each playoff series. Sometimes they know a guy can't play in the first two games, but could help them in the last four or five so they put him on.

I have to say that it would be absolutely absurd to interpret the team member definition to mean that a player cannot be listed in the book at the start of the game, but arrive later, say at halftime, and play without penalty.

The intent is not to penalize tardiness or other commitments. The intent is prevent teams from disguising who is going to play for them in that game. In fact, the listing of a late arrival is declaring to the opponent ahead of time that this kid may play. This is the opposite of any deception and is the sporting thing to do. Why would the NFHS want that penalized?

:p

Anyway, back to your comment about counting players - I can't imagine the Fed. wants us to be so strict as to only allow the players we actually see dressed as the only one to be allowed in the game. What if one of them is back in the locker room getting their ankles taped? Or they're under the stands making out with a cheerleader? Even better, what if the coach takes the team back to the locker room for the final chalk session when you're checking the book? Does that mean you can't allow <B>any</B> of the players, because you didn't actually see them when you were officially checking the book?

Sometimes nits need to be picked, but not this time.

So I <B>still</B> agree with Bob.

The kid mighta been having a dump. Nothing in the rules saying he can't during warm-up.

Who cares as long as he's in the book?

Agree with Bob also; no-brainer imo.

There is no rule which requires a team member to be present for the pregame warmup period or at any other time prior to his actual entry into the game.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but in our area the kid's taking a dump.

Which I've never understood anyway, because I wouldn't want to <B>take</B> it, I'd want to <B>leave</B> it.

Does Bob agree?

Nevermind.

I count 12 players and there are at least 12 names in the book I am happy. It there are 14 names I am happy, if there are 10-11 names then we have a problem, end of story.

Officiating basketball is hard enough already, let's not make it more difficult than it has to be.

You must have misunderstood my comment. I completely agree with Bob. The kid can go get taped, take a dump, leave a dump, have a nap or go hold up a liquor store during pregame.

I was just answering *your* question, in a somewhat disagreeable manner.

True, but if he's not even at the game site, how is he "eligible to become a player"?

Just so everybody knows, I agree with the "common sense" answer. And I'm glad to be told a common sense way to deal with the question within the rules. But the question was raised because the language of 3-2-1 changed a few years ago. It used to say that you had to submit a list of all "squad members", which was not defined. Now it refers to "team members" which is very clearly defined.

In any case, I think Bob's response that there's no restriction against listing non-team members is a good one. Maybe at my next girls' game, Jennifer Aniston will be on the roster. :)

It does not say he needs to be dressed and ready to play 10 minutes prior to the game to be a team member, as your interpretation implies.

It just says he just needs to be dressed and ready to play. Time unspecified.

That's kind of silly, I think. On that interpretation, anybody who ever dressed for that school is a team member. Heck, I played for the Gremlins in '68. I was suited and ready to play. I must be a team member. Put my name in the book, Coach!

Huh?

You mean to say someone who was dressed and ready to play in '68 is dressed and ready to play in tonight's game?

Talk about silly... :rolleyes:

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

Did I say THAT? Hold on, let me go check...

....OK I'm back. Nope, didn't say that. I said "Time unspecified".

errr...I hesitate to say this because I'm sure it's a trick question...but here goes...he'll be ready to play when he's in the building and sitting on the bench, will he not? The rule does not specify that he MUST be dressed and ready to play WHEN his name goes in the book. It just says he MUST be dressed and ready to play to get his name in the book for that game. It does not specify the time during or prior to the game WHEN he must be dressed and ready to play (time unspecified). And if you can't seem to wrap your arms around that concept try this: there's no penalty defined for a coach who puts a name in the book because he thinks a kid *might* be dressed and ready to play but never shows up. There's just a penalty if the coach does NOT put the kid's name in the book and plays him later.

Chuck...this happens sometimes in our region.

The kid is playing a couple quarters of Junior Varsity ball, at another building, and the game is running late. He is eligible to play in the Varsity game and therefore, his name is in the book. He may not even be there when the game starts...but, he is eligible to play when he gets to the Varsity site.

And the difference is? :confused: "No time limit" and "no time limit specified" are pretty much equivalent in our context, aren't they?

Yes, of course. No dispute. (In fact, you realize, I hope, that there's no actual dispute here at all, right? You and I are going to handle this exactly the same way, regardless of whether we agree on the exact wording of the rule.)

But it does seem to specify that. You have to submit the roster at a certain time. And the roster has to have team members on it. If you're not dressed and eligible to become a player when the roster is submitted, how can you be a team member?

So it could be 1968? :)

True, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. There's no penalty for wearing earrings, but you're not allowed to play with them in.

Again, the loophole is that the rule doesn't prohibit non-team-members from being in the book. So this whole discussion is moo. (It's like a cow's opinion. It's a moo point. -- Joey Tribbiani) But if the loophole weren't there, I think we might have to say that only the players at the site could go in the book.

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this? Do what the people you work for say. If they are in the book, they can play whether they are there or not. If that is hard to understand, then ask the people you work for and see what the normal practice is where you live. I could see there being some state rule that requires some kind of eligibility. Other than that the NF does not address this in as much detail as you would like. I am going to assume that there is "no time limit" with people that are still eligible. That would exclude folks that have graduated or are not of the proper age to still play (or whatever eligibility rules that might affect who plays on a team of any kind). So if the kid is eligible to play at a particular school and they are in the book, you should let them play. Not very hard to understand for most of us that officiate basketball.

Peace

And even if they are not eligible (suspended from school; insufficient GPA; 5th year Senior, etc) , is it our job (or business) to make that determination and take action?

No, it's not. I had this very situation come up many moons ago, where a coach came up and told me a player on the other team wasn't eligible. My partner and I checked with the other coach, and he admitted the player was not eligible. So we shot the T, and went on with the game. We found out afterward from the state office that this is not under the officials' jurisdiction, but an issue between the schools and state office. There is no game penalty or inforcement in place. If one school wants to press the issue, then there could be more suspensions, or a game forfeiture, but nothing in place for the game officials to enforce.

Sure, they are very equivalent, but those are not my words.

I said "no time specified". As in the issue of time in any context is simply not addressed. I didn't say "no time limit specified". errr....and you're saying WHAT, exactly, is NOT allowed in our discussion again? You're saying a coach can't write a player's name down in the book unless he's dressed & ready to play? What if he's dressed but injured? Can he write the name in the book?

Good grief, no, I'm not! How many times do I have to say that I'm going to handle it exactly the same way as the rest of you? Here it is one more time: I'm going to handle it exactly the same way as the rest of you!!!

I'm merely interested in how this might be handled if Bob's "loophole" weren't in place. The only question I think is mildly curious is whether a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site is a team member, given that he is neither dressed nor ready to play.

Lighten up. :rolleyes: I am just giving you a little grief about it. It is kind a funny discussion but nothing that is serious. I thought IAABO Rules Interpreters would know the answer to this. :D

Peace

Well, then you're granting my point about players from 1968 being team members.

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

That's not a bif if. This is: <font size =+6>IF</font size>
Anyway, I would think the Fed. purposely left the term "eligible" a little vague, so they wouldn't have to get into issues such as grades, suspensions from fighting, 20 miles away vs. "in the parking lot", what's considered "in" the lot vs. the driveway, etc., etc, ad nauseum. And in the case of grades, suspensions, and other "eligibility" issues, it's not our jurisdiction. So we don't need to rule if the names in the book are eligible, just whether they can play in the game once they stand on that X.

Since time is not addressed at all with respect to these rules I would say he's eligible whenever he arrives dressed in the gym and the coach has every right to write his name in the book before the 10 minute mark. (If the coach wants to put your name in the book because you played in '68 there's nothing to stop him btw...time is not addressed. But you'll need to explain to your assignor why your name appears in the boxscore as a player and an official, won't you?)

Further, if the coach writes him into the book there is no penalty if the kid decides he wants to go visit little Suzy or hold up a liquor store (or even both) instead of show up for the game. Why no penalty you ask? Because time is not addressed.

But you ignored my question: what if A1 is dressed and injures himself during warmups just prior to the 10 minute mark (ie not ready at the 10 minute mark). Are you saying the coach should NOT put his name in the book?

What if A1 injures himself at the 9 minute mark? Does the coach have to take A1's name out of the book & be given a T?

The player is still eligible to become a player. He would be allowed in the book. You keep using the phrase "ready to play", but that's not in the rule. The rule says "eligible to become a player". It doesn't matter if he's ready. It only matters if he's dressed and eligible to become a player.

Then all that really matters is if he/she is dressed.

"Eligible to become a player" speaks to the future and in a non-deterministic way. Said person might become (in the future) a player when he takes the floor for the opening tip-off. Said person might become (in the future) a player some time during the third quarter when he/she finally gets to the gym. But even more than that, it doesn't require the team member to actually become a player, ever. Merely that he/she is eligible to become a player.

If, for purposes of this rule, eligible isn't about grades, suspensions, fights, etc., then what does it mean to be eligible? The best as I can come up with is that eligible, in this context, merely means that the coach has given assent to put that person's name on the line up.

The opposite case, of course, is that a person the coach wants to become a player, but whose name was not included in the line up, must be added to the line up at the cost of a technical foul. Once the person's name is added, he/she is eligible to become a player.

Name on line up = eligible to become a player

So that leaves just the dressed issue. How you are to determine that without inspecting uniforms, I don't know. There is no provision in basketball rules for a formal equipment inspection. So I guess you have no better option than to assume the player is legally attired an equiped, as the coach will attest to, until such time as you observe that he/she is not.

Maybe at my next girls' game, Jennifer Aniston will be on the roster. :)


Watch the players on the floor, not who MIGHT be on the bench.;)

My board interpreter (who probably was in on Chuck's conference call) issued this same ruling last year. I thought he was wrong then -- and I still do.

While 4-34-4 defines "team member," it also refers to "bench personnel," which are defined a few paragraphs earlyer in 4-34-2. This is what separates "team member" from "bench personnel." Bench personnel includes substitutes, coaches, statisticians, managers or precisely "all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team." Team member merely distinguishes from that motley cast of characters by recognizing that some will (or could) get into a game and some could not (the coaches, managers and statisticians, I would suggest.)

When I show up at a gym for a high school game, or an AAU game or a youth travel league game, it is none of my business -- by rule -- who plays. I don't hold tryouts, I don't check transcripts, I don't see birth certificates. The schools and their associations (or the tournament sponsors) are responsible for that. My job is to make sure the contest on the court is played by the rules of basketball -- none of which cover things like age, district boundaries, or whether a kid played a half in the JV game and thus can play only one half of the varsity game. If one team cheats and puts "ineligible" players on the court, it is not my job to do anything about it.

A wise official once instructed me: "Why go looking for trouble?" That is all that you get if you accept this interpretation.

OK.

Is a dressed injured player "eligible"? If not why not?

If so...is a dressed player in the locker room until the game starts "eligible"? If not why not?

If so...is a dressed player running thru the hallway at the start of the game "eligible"? If not why not?

If so...is a player pulling his car into the school parking lot at the start of the game "eligible" when he later arrives dressed in the gym? If not why not?

It just seems to me that the roster information submitted at the 10-minute mark is supposed to be the players that are -- at that time -- dressed and eligible. I honestly don't understand the rationale behind "he can be eligible later".

Based on what?

We already agreed that the rule does not address timing.

Sorry to be so late on this, but the local board's interpretor answered this on the board's website, and I thought his answer was informative.

The rule is to submit the players name to the table or scorer. The rule does not require anyone to put them in the book before 10 minutes. If that was the case, many tournaments would always have a T to start the game.

Peace

It might be informative, but that don't make it correct.

IAABO rules interpretations aren't valid unless IAABO happens to be a state's governing rules body. That doesn't make that ruling valid in any other states though. And IAAO refresher exam or not, I disagree completely with their exam answer and I also disagree that the rule cited to back that answer is valid. There is no definitive rule in the FED rule book making that practise illegal.

Interesting interpretation.

Can you email him and ask what to do if a team has 9 players on the floor but 10 players in the book at the 10 minute mark?

(This oughta be fun.)

<b>Coach</b>: I've got a player having a dump.

<b>OOO</b>: Doesn't matter. That's a "T"!

I thought the interesting part was the guy saying "the rule is X, answer the question X, then do Y, like we've always done".

Unfortunately, I think that your local interpreter's answer is inaccurate and uninformative. While that is the definition of a team member, the rules do not state WHEN those kids have to be ready to play. Why would anyone interpret it to mean that they have to be ready TEN minutes prior to the scheduled game time? The teams still have ten minutes to warmup and by definition are NOT ready to play at that time. They are still stretching and running drills.
Many teams return to the lockerroom for the last several minutes of this time period. The ENTIRE team leaves. Would this guy say that means that there are no team members present and that this team should forfeit? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but your local guy need to rethink this one or pick up the phone and call the NFHS office for clarification.

Maybe I'm being being too specific, but you're both inaccurate. "Ready to play" is not part of the rule. The rule says that bench personel have to be in uniform and eligible to become a player. You don't have to be ready that minute, you just have to be eligible. Does that make a difference?

No you are not. That local interpreter is the one being too literal. The problem lies in the lack of a definition from the NFHS of what is in red.