team control signal for NFHS
 

Apologies in advance if this has already been addressed recenly. I did a search and didn't find any recent ones.

The last time I remember us discussing the team control signal, there was still some debate about whether a raised fist preceded the team control signal for NFHS.

From Page 72 of the 2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Book:

Team-Control Foul Signal Added (Signal Chart): The arm is extended forward and the fist is punched. The signal should be preceded by the stop clock for a foul signal (arm extended over head with the fist).

No there wasn't...the proper FED ruling was cited. Some other things were debated, as usual.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=27978

I will probably do the whistle followed by the punch and yell offensive. Its the same mechanic as the NCAA Womens Team Control.

Why would you use NCAA Womens mechanics in an NFHS game? Do you use all of the Women's mechanics?

No, but it the same mechanic. I have been using the punch for the last couple of years on player control foul and I am not saying its right, but I havent been told not to do it either. Anyway, I am glad they made the change.

As much as I hate when officials blatantly ignore NF mechanics, I have to disagree with your position. The NF has not made it clear what sequence the signal is supposed to be used. Of course the NF has put the information how they want this to be covered through Referee Magazine, but when you look at actually NF books, there is almost no mention of the sequence or order is to make all those signals or when to use those signals. I think the NF is doing a terrible job to show something that is very easy to do. It is one thing to list a signal chart. If you have a sequence that you only want to be uses, why not make that clear in the signal chart?

Peace

You are right, it will be a mess and the ones that have been doing it will keep on doing it and the ones that have never did it will have to make the change to do it. I am glad I am on the other side of things!

According to Referee and their PlayPic (July 2006, page 72) here's the sequence to be used.

1. One-hand fist to indicate foul
2. Punch signal to designate team-control foul
3. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of foul (in the PlayPic, it's pushing)
4. Indicate spot for the designated-spot throw-in

I'd get used to it. I'd bet the farm this picture will be in the Basketball Guides with all the other changes. As we all know, Referee publishes these Guides for the NFHS, so I'd be very puzzled if something different was printed in the Guides the NFHS passes out.

1) What position of mine are you disagreeing with?:confused: If you re-read my post, all I did was ask a few questions- without taking <b>ANY</b> position at all.

2) Say WHAT? The NFHS posted the exact signaling sequence on their website back in May. It's still posted there. That's noted in my post of Oct. 6. And as Z posted at the start of this thread, you can find the correct new signaling sequence laid out on page 72 of this year's rule book. Signal #4 followed by signal #34. The FED couldn't be any clearer imo.

after you have done micromanaging weather to blow-raise fist-point fist and call offensive versus blow-point-call-raise or whatever chain of events you chose make sure you actually remember to report and do some jumping jacks. I dont see what the huge deal is and why some people get so bent out of shape if somepeople just blow-point-yell offensive and some blow-raise-point-yell and some blow-raise-point and some blow-point-raise. Just make sure what you do is communicated with your partner and that the teams know what going on. me personally sometimes i might blow-point-yell and sometimes i might blow-raise-point-yell (by point of course i mean close fisted because the game might cease to exist if i forget that part).

flame me if you must but I dont see the big deal with blow-point-yell and blow-raise-point-yell. in the end get the call right, communicate and hustle. i personally dont care much about being off on a mechanic or not rather than being off in judgement and rule knowledge and application. IMO there are very few officials out there who are flawless at mechanics, rules knowledge and application, and game management. Usually I have learned and seen that out of those 4 most officials will be very good at 3 and not so good at 1. just the nature of the beast i suppose. I focus on the latter 3 and in time my mechanics will have to catch up. I am still working on rules and I am basically only really good at game management and decent at rules application and knowledge.

Nuf Said! I agree!

I am disagreeing with your position that it would be wrong to use the NCAA Mechanic when with all the information that has been given the NCAA Women's Mechanic and the NF mechanic are basically the same.

You might not be aware, but that is the NCAA Women's Mechanic. What does not seemed to be clear to me and to many others, is do we completely eliminate the other signals (block, push, illegal use of hands) and use only the TC signal when calling a TC foul. The book in my opinion talks more about the using of this signal to eliminate confusion with a PC foul.

Peace

Not exactly - the difference is the closed fist. In Fed., they want the closed fist in the air to signal a foul, then the "punch" to signal a team control foul. In NCAA-W, only the punch is used, not the fist in the air first. Subtle difference.

1) Would you care to point out <b>exactly</b> where I took that position in this thread? Or where I took <b>any</b> position in this thread?

2) You might not be aware either, but the complete foul reporting procedure is on P36 & 37 of the current NFHS Officials Manual. #231(d) on p.37 states that you only use a single signal for PC fouls. It doesn't mention using a single signal for TC fouls also, and there's nothing on the FED website that says anything different either. The FED couldn't be any clearer on what <b>they</b> want done imo. All you have to do really is read #230 and #231.

You might be right, but when I did Women's basketball, the mechanic was to raise the hand. Many people did not follow the mechanic (surprise, surprise) and would go to the punch signal. That has been about 5 years ago so I would not be surprised if that has changed. It is not much different in the Men's game where you are supposed to use the stop clock for out of bounds plays, but people do not use that signal and just point.

Peace

I think the tail is wagging the dog here and an official will look crazy trying to do a ton of signaling when all is needed is the punch, whistle and voice. Then when you get to the table, signal what is was a push, block etc.

deecee and IREFU2 - here's where I find myself becoming old fuddy-duddy. In my younger days I would've agreed whole-heartedly with you. What the hell difference does it make what signal you use, as long as everyone knows what the call is. Getting the call right is the most important thing, right? Well, as I've gone through the ranks, I've found that doing the proper mechanics says as much about you as knowing the rules. And, more often than not, people will judge you on your appearance, including mechanics. They may not get to judge you as often on rule knowledge, because there may be plenty of games where nothing unusual happens where you can show off your knowledge. But you do get to show off your mechanics <B>every</B> game. Do you come to a game with mud on your shoes? How about those wrinkles in your shirt? If you're careful about those aspects, why do you want to be sloppy in your mechanics? Why not "do it by the book"?

Trust me, mechanics is the one thing that I am strong in and I have never had a problem in that area. I was just stating what I do in regards to the TC Foul. I really appreciate your input though. I guess we should just wait until the Fed's come out with the proper procedures.

I don't remember whether or not we were to raise the fist first. But in the last couple of years it has been just to punch the fist in the direction the ball is to go next.

That's also a NCAA-W's mechanic, and has been for several years. I have heard a men's supervisor say they don't like that, and he wants his officials to "use the men's mechanic, not the women's mechanic". That may not be true for all. I have also heard from our good buddies Kurt and Beth that we are to specifically "stop the clock" (raise the hand) when we blow our whistle in HS, and to not just point.

JR, stop being so defensive. If that is not what you meant by your comments, it is OK. I likely misunderstood you. This is why I made the statement in the first place.

Well the signal came from the college ranks. According to the Men's CCA Book, you are supposed to give the type of foul you have and indicate that you have a TC foul. Only when you have a PC, intentional, excessive contact foul and double foul are you not supposed to give an indication of the specific type of foul.

Peace

We need to go to precision time so when the whistle blows, the clock stops automatically and then we can just punch or point!!!!!!!

Well a lot of things changed without explanation when Referee Magazine started publishing the CCA Books. The same thing happens on the Men's side with out of bounds plays. All of a sudden they took out the comment "You do not need to use the stop clock signal on out of bounds calls." Then it was made clear that you had to use the stop clock signal. It makes me wonder if CCA consciously knew what was in their previous books.

That is true depending on whom you work for and who you are as an official. Remember some officials can do a lot of things that a lowly official like myself cannot do.

I also heard the same thing from Harry B. when I attended his camp this summer. I still see how things will be confusing to those that either did not attend the right meeting in their association or attend the right camp.

Peace

The precision timing system is not going to avoid a possible double whistle situation.

Peace

Very true.

I don't understand what you mean by this? What has a double whistle got to do with this sitch?

We call the hand/fist in the air the "stop clock" signal. But that's really a misnomer. No timer that I've ever worked with has ever looked for an official's raised arm. They stop the clock on the whistle.

But there's another reason we raise our hand on the whistle: double whistles. On a double whistle you need to know both that your partner has a whistle (and we've all had double whistles that were so completely simultaneous that we were surprised to see our partner's arm in the air) and then what call your partner has. And you need to know it before either of you signals anything. The hand/fist in the air is our safety net in this situation. You see your partner's arm go up, you confer before you signal.

If you're using precision time, and you've decided to dispense with the arm in the air because you don't need it to stop the clock, you've eliminated your safety net and increased the odds of having a blarge.

Sure, you are less likely to have a double whistle in a TC situation than say on a drive to the basket, but it's not impossible.

Thank youl. I completely missed your point. I thought you were trying to say that the precision timing system didn't work well with double whistles...hello:)

Maybe you haven't been reading all the posts in this thread, but JR has already pointed out that the FED has already come out with the approved mechanic procedure for the team control foul. It's posted on the FED website. The mechanic is:

1) Stop clock (fist over head).
2) TC signal (fist straight out in front of body).
3) Preliminary signal (block, push, etc.).
4) Designate spot for throw-in.

So you can stop waiting. :)

That's nothing you've have to worry about with IREFU2. I think he even irons his socks. :p