Was there a resolution in Kentucky?
 

At the end of last season, there was a post on here (or maybe more than one) about a Kentucky official who had got into a squabble with a fellow official in the locker room and ended up losing some post-season assignments over it. He sued to get back on a game and was hoping for an injunction to prevent the game from being played without him. The game went on without him.

Did anyone ever hear anymore on what happened with that? Did both officials in the squabble get suspended? Are they both going to be officiating HS games this coming season?

Thanks,

Z

I don't know if there was a resolution, but here's the thread for anybody who doesn't remember what we're talking about: http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=25463

Remember the one from Alaska a few years ago? The one where the officials were discussing a coach in the dressing room and she overheard them....and then a lawsuit or a state complaint ensued for discrimination iirc?

Anyone ever hear what happened to that one?

Last summer, that coach had a team playing in a summer tournament here in our area...her brother-in-law (the one who did the recording) was also there and I talked with him. Asked him what the outcome was and he told me it was settled out of court - no details.

The coach got a little animated at one point towards a partner...I was C table-side and turned to her and said something along the lines of "You need to find a different way to communicate with us, coach" and she looked at me shocked, and said "Ok, thank you sir. I didn't realize refs would actually talk to me anymore." Pretty sad...

NIce, dj !

Well, that association has a new assigning secretary this year, so I really don't know what will come if it. I happen to know both men involved and the one that did not sue will most likely be back. He accepted what he did as wrong (to get into a confrontation at a game site like he did), but the one that did go to court, well, knowing what I do about him, most likely will not be officiating in KY this year (or any other one for that matter). Too bad as well. If he had kept his mouth shut for a few years, he would be a fixture in the state tournament (a pretty good official, just has too many "chips" places if you know what I mean). I heard he walked out of a meeting when the announced the Saturday officials for the state tourney one year (they play the semis & finals on Sat) and has not been back since!

Ok, which is which?

Alaska
 

Alaska ended up ugly!:eek:

Whatever happen with that issue?

Peace

I have a realitive in the association and here is what he reports.

The two referee's - one was the Chapter President - were suspended for the 06-07 BB year. The official that brought the legal charges (not the President) declined to renew his dues and has resigned the chapter.

There is a new assigning secretary.

The association also donated some amount of money to the High School that had to reschedule the cancelled game.

Hey, thanks for the update. From the reports I read, it sounds like a pretty reasonable solution. It sounded like both officials were clearly in the wrong.

Z

For those that are not familiar with how Kentucky does things you might want to clarify.

What does resigning from accomplish? Was this not a playoff game? What does the chapter have to do with this?

Did the old assigning secretary play some role in this situation?

Peace

Resigning keeps him from causing anymore trouble in that area. He did not live in Louisville, but about 45 minutes from there. Maybe he will try and go to that region, but I doubt that anyone will take him.

It was a regional Semi-Final if memory serves. It was to be held in Freedom Hall and the reschedule caused a little monetary loss for the schools, hence the region officials association donated some of the money to help this situation.

The assigning secretary pulled BOTH officials off the next game(s) and this caused the fracus.

Wow, I guess we know where you stand. :rolleyes:

Why are local assignment chairman assigning playoff games to a state tournament? Sounds like a major conflict of interest.

Peace

Not really. There are two ways that we assign refs for districts and regions here in good Ole KY. One can find another association in which to trade refs with (yyyuuuuuukkkkkkk) or you can stay within your own region. The local assigning secretary has knowledge of who the best are in each association, so it really isn't an issue.

There are also two different rating systems here in KY. We use a committee in ours, made up of four coaches from each region (we service two) two from each gender. They meet and decide who is qualified from the association and then the secretary assigns the games from there.

The other way is the good ole point system, still used by the majority of the regions. Officials are rated 0-20 points by each coach and then the secretary has 20 points for each as well. Both systems have flaws and politics probably will never be totally purged from either system, but the committee system seems to work well. One does not know who the coaches are, so you aren't sure if he/she saw you or not during the season.

The reason I said this could be a conflict of interest, it seems to me that the local assigning secretary can assign his/her friends and not recommend the best official. Now do I feel they should have some imput? Of course they should, but they should not be the one making the actual assigning. That should be someone independent that does not have a regular interaction with those officials in my opinion.

I am not saying that all systems are perfect. I just think the system that KY has produced was part of the reason this whole thing blew up, based on what I have read and what some sources told me. Even if an official is qualified by all standards, it gives the appearance of something that is not that way. I am glad I do not live in such a system. I think this is why there is a shortage of officials across the country. The appearance is often worse than what is reality.

Peace

Well, I know the person that assigns the games personally. His son in law is in the association and never gets to do "big games" like that. He works the 1st or 2nd round then sits the rest of the season. How many guys will do that? I think is says alot about the person.

But you are correct. There are places that the "good ole boy" network runs rampant, but not in that association and not in the one I am in. It mainly runs in the rural areas where good officials are hard to come by. That's why our committee system system seems to work best. Sometimes the coaches have interaction with the officials and sometimes they do not. Works better than most (except for me). I don't do alot of HS ball and it really hurts me in the ratings. We all stay in it hoping to get a tourney game someday. I feel that I have the best grasp of the three person system, yet barely get district games. So the system is not flawless. (I know that sounds like I am tooting my own horn, but I worked really hard and spent alot of "bling bling" to get where I am. Someday, when I can work more HS games it will pay off. I just chosse the college games now for more experience).

Great debate though. Love talking about things like this with other people that know what's what!

Why shouldn't local assignors be involved in deciding what officials in their area work the playoffs? Why is it a major conflict of interest?

An assignor assigns the same officials all year long. He knows who the best officials are. He know what their capabilities are. He knows who can blow the whistle and who can't.

In NC, local assignors assign officials to work Sectional playoff games. If you're a Class 1 or Class 2 official, you'll get one, maybe two playoff games. The state association people don't see everyone work. They depend on the local assignors, who do the job all year long, to assign their locals during the playoffs.

In our local, if you work varsity all year long, you'll get a Sectional playoff game. The higher your rating, the more experienced, the more likely you are to get a second or even third game.

The local assignor submits nominees for the Regional tourney. The state usually accepts those nominations. They then assign those officials to 2 regional games and choose the state final officials. The same guys do NOT go every year. If you do a great job and keep your nose clean, you'll go once every 3 or 4 years. I went in 2003 and 2006. I don't expect to have another opportunity until 2009 or 2010.

I'm sure good ole boy systems exist in some areas across the country. But to ignore the fact that the local assignor knows his people, and knows what they are capable of would be stupid. Without his input, you're just pulling names out of a hat.

The assignor should also know from experience what personalities don't mesh well from a crew standpoint also, and could maybe keep those individuals away from each other, if possible. Some officials are just like oil and water with other officials; that's just human nature. From what I've read, that might have been a factor in the Kentucky fiasco too.

I just wanted to add that point; I completely agree with the rest of your post. JMHO.

Or you simply rely on the same people every year. Or you rely on the coaches' lists. It's not necessarily pulling names out of a hat, but it definitely fails to take advantage of an important source of information.

Well, they were on different crews. When the "incident" occured, it was halftime of the first Semi and the person that sued was working that game, the other person was doing the later game.

And the guy that caused all the hubbub isn't one of the greatest partners in the world. No doubt that he can referee, he just wants everything about "him" and not the game. I bet there weren't 5 people in that whole association that would work with him. That's sad!

For something as important as the playoffs, I feel there should be someone that has no direct ties to the officials or the schools in assigning the officials. I can see all kinds of personal relationships that might have the competitors wondering why this guy got the opportunity and why this guy did not. I also feel that way because I do not work in that kind of system. Not that my system is much better, but at least there is less chance that someone I have worked directly with is not making playoff assignments. It also sounds like a lot of this blow up was a result of the closeness of everyone involved.

Peace

Anything happen to any of the partners? i.e. the guy working with the fellow who was tossed in mid-game & the guy who was to follow with the guy who barged in?

It was not a state tourny event.

It was a regional finals.

Local jurisdiction.

The story, as I was told from insiders, involoved heavy competition to get the high profile game Saturday nite.

The official that sued wanted the bigger (5A) games than what he got assigned.

He "discovered" that the officials assigned to the "high profile" game were both alumni of one of the schools playing. He challanged that wanting to get the game and - as I understand - even went to the coach of the other team with this information. The Coach called the assigner and complained too.

It was the Friday nite before the Regional finals and the Chapter President - what was assigned the big 5A game (and an alumni of one of the schools) was told the other official was "making noise" and he confronted him after the semi final games friday game in the locker room.

The argument got heated and spilled into the stands with both in street clothes and both were escorted out of the arena.

The Chapter president admitted later that yes, he approached the ref earlier in the locker room and brought the subject up and apologized.

After this encounter the assigner pulled AT LEAST the first official's Saturday game (I don't know if he pulled the Presidents schedule for the big 5A game too). The official showed up anyway Saturday to ref the lower schools with a court order he could not be removed by the assinger.

That game was cancelled as a result.

The case was driopped when the association showed the court that the assigner has the sole right and discrecion to assign and replace in these games for any reason.

The assigner was not directly accused in anything but resigned nonetheless.

Correct except for one or two points: 1) We don't have basketball classifications in KY. 2) The official in question that brought up the "alumni" question happened to be friends with one of the assistant coaches at that school as well. Granted that one should not officiate games at a HS he/she went to, but in college ball, we have a 10 year waiting period (in some places) and then we can go to that school. I do not see the problem in sending an alum to a game. IF the official has the integrity to do so, I see no problem with it. At that crucial time, the assigning secretary had the confidence that no bias would come up.

The guy that sued just wanted that game because of the other things I mentioned in a previous post. Not the game "him"! It is all about "him"!

That is not the case in every state. Our regional championships are still apart of the state playoffs. There is no "local" jurisdiction where I live. The IHSA controls that and if you ask me that how it should be.

Peace

Well, we are opposed in that area. Our system rarely has any problems, this just happened to be one of those things that happens.

The IHSA system is as old as the hills if you ask me and if one was to move into your state, getting anything but JV games (no matter what level you are at now) is next to impossible! Local jurisdction, as well as state jurisdiction, all have bad points. Local guys know his/her people very well and that least newer people that have the talent work bigger games as he/she move up the ladder. In IN, you have the worst (IMO) system there is for getting "new blood" into the mix. It takes forever and even if one has the talent to work, some officials have contracts for years with certain schools. Makes for a long frustraiting wait.

FWIW, I disagree that it is O.K. to send an alum (or a friend of someone on the coaching staff) to work playoff games involving that school. I fully believe that there are officials capable of working those games without bias or influence, but the whole point is to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. Depending on how desperate a local area is for quality officials, it may be necessary for longer-term alums (etc.) to work regular season games -- although I think every effort should be made to avoid that as well -- but it will serve officiating and the game of basketball better if we avoid the appearance of conflicts, not just the conflicts that make themselves evident.

The Kentucky debacle is something to learn from. IMO, just be grateful to get those typegames.

I disagree completely.

When the playoffs arrive, we don't even work the same teams we see all year. All officials travel to arbitrary sites to officiate teams they do not workj during the regular season. And they sent an alum from a HS to work his former school's game in the state tourney? Sorry but that's just assinine.

It really has nothing to with whether he would be biased or not. I'm sure he wouldn't. But it's all about the "apopearance" of bias or a conflict of interest. There are other games. They should have looked for a way to move him off that game and to another one at the same level of the playoffs. That's just plain stupid and it's asking for trouble.

Seems you think the glass is half empty too huh?

There are people who can put his/her personal feeling aside and call an objective game. I know if I ever had the chance to go to my old HS and do a game, I would. I have been back to my Alma Mater in college as well and had no qualms about going there and called the game down the middle (as I always do)!

So please do not condem the people that have a hard enough job as it is. There was a good reason those officials were chosen for the assignment!

One other thing, please get a dictionary or use "spell check".

Hey!! There's only room in this forum for one annoying spelling guy. . . :mad:

Barely enough room...and that's even knowing he doesn't take up much space. ;)

Kevzebra - the issue isn't whether we can put aside our personal feelings. I think almost all of us can. It is the <B>appearance</B> of possible favoritism. Let's say you do go work that game at your alma mater. And there's a close call at the end of the game that goes against the visitors. When the visiting coach finds out you went to the home school, you've just put your assignor in a bad spot of trying to explain how objective you really are. Why put him/her in that spot? Perception becomes reality, so if someone perceives you as biased because of your past affiliation, then you are. I was just recently picked up by a conference that includes my wife's alma mater. She graduated from there over 25 years ago, and has not been active in any school functions, other than going to a class reunion several years ago. Even with that, I informed my assignor about this and let him make the decision as to whether I can work any games involving that school. It so happens he doesn't have an issue with it, so if there is a problem down the road, he can defend me, or decide to take me off any other games with that school.

So if an official gets picked to do the state championship game and it's his alma mater, should he get taken off the game? That's silly.

At our state tournaments, we aren't allowed to officiate teams from our district for the first two days. After that, things fall where they may. No problems. I have reffed my alma mater (boys and girls games) many times during the regular season and in the playoffs. No problems. I graduated from there 25 years ago and it's completely irrelevant.

The situation in Kentucky was a problem because two official's involved were unprofessional. Let's not twist it to appear as if it was a problem because of the assignment.

Well said.

I tried not to take up much space with that reply. :(

Don't feel bad, Chuck. You take up a small spot in all of our hearts...

People think we are bias even when we are not no matter what the issues are. Just because there is an "appearance" of bias, does not make it a valid issue. People think if you live in a certain town, you must have a bias toward the team in the town you live. I have a better relationship with people that are not working at my old HS and if the right person did a probe they would come up with a conflict there as well. I have worked games with people I went to HS or college with and no one even knows I knew them very well. I think we worry too much about what people think.

Peace

No one would have known had the issue not been raised by the "suing official". THe coaches had no clue till HE told the assistant from that school!

AMEN! The only person I have to please with my officiating is myself and my supervisor. As long as we are happy, the rest is gravy!

So you don't have the ability to comprehend what you read. I'm not talking about a glass. May I suggest that you have someone else reas it and explain it to you? If you did, the person would tell you:

"BBR doesn't disagree that the official would have been able to call the game without bias. He even wrote as much in his post. What he said was that we should avoid the "appearance of bias or conflict of interest." That means that assignors shouldn't put officials in postions where it appears to an uneducated observer that the offiical might favor a team."

Sorry but I have a right to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. Don't tell me what to think.

Hey prick, I don't need either. I type in a hurry and sometimes I make a mistake. If that bothers you, I couldn't care less.

BTW, the word is spelled c-o-n-d-e-m-n, not c-o-n-d-e-m. Also, you should have used the plural form of "feeling," which is "feelings."

Ahem......
 

Seems to me someone needs to follow their own advice......

Apologies to "Mr. Spell Check", I just couldn't resist!!!

And your comment is stupd, even for you. We have 8 state championship games, 4 boys and 4 girls. We send one crew to work a state championship game every year. With 8 games, we've NEVER had a problem with puttung neutral crews on every single game. So no, it's not necessary to not assign an official a state final. You simply assign him a game with teams that he normally doesn't work.

Congratulations.

I can discuss any aspect of this situation that I choose to, without regard to what you think should or should not be discussed. After all, it is a discussion forum.

Absolutely. No doubt about it. The official should have the sense to recuse himself if assigned to the game. I find it hard to believe you think this is "silly". Imagine a state championship game where a foul is called with no time left and someone from the official's alma mater is shooting 3 to win the game. Heads would roll.

Also if one of the teams is from his current home town, even if (or especially if) it's his alma mater's arch rival. Imagine the situation above where it's his alma mater's arch rival and there is no call.

This is not a question of integrity of the official, it is a question of integrity of the game. There should never be any hint of favoritism.

Well, seems as if somone has a problem with associative responses as well. Oh wait, you can comprehend what that is I bet.

The forum is for opinions and I was speaking mine as you were yours. Just because we disagree (and you cannot spell) is no reason to get nasty. I neither called you any names or degraded anything but your ability to type. If that is the worst thing that happens to you today be happy!

We were not talking about a state tourney game. Those are chosen by the commissioner and any association with the schools (went there, wife works there, in your region, in a region you used to be in) you are not on that game. Harder to do when you deal with people in a region. But I agree that the official can use good judgement and ask for a switch.

We had one in our state tourney this year. One of the guys used to work in one of the regions that had a game saturday. He was one of the best (if not THE best) official at the tourney. He sat out the Semis and finals!

I have a problem with people who attack me simply because I disagree with them. You were acting like a prick in this thread, long before I acknowledged it.

BTW, you should re-read my reply as I edited and gave you some helpful spelling and grammer tips.

Thank you, Jim. Some people are way out in left field on this one.

Do you remember what happen about 2 seasons ago to Rick Hartzell? Rick Hartzell is a D1 official who happens to be the Athletic Director of Northern Iowa. Hartzell works in the Big Ten and was working a Wisconsin-Indiana game. Well the school he worked at was on the bubble late in the season as well as Indiana. He made a call against Indiana that was critical in the game and Indiana eventually lost. Hartzell was accused by an ESPN commentator of not making a critical call for Indiana, because Hartzell's school would benefit from the lost of a team in another conference, in an unrelated situation all because he happens to be the AD of this other school. Now this story was a national story and the ESPN Commentator even apologized for most of his statements.

The point if they want to find bias, they will find an appearance of bias just about anywhere. I can tell you as an African-American, suburban official, the issues of bias come up all the time where I live. If I work a game between an all-Black team verses a largely white school that is from the suburbs, you should hear the comments from the stands that suggest that myself or my partners (who can be white) have something against one of the teams based on something that may or may not be a factor. Being an alum of a school is not the only bias out there or the only bias someone can make an issue out of. As a matter of fact where I live what school you attended is almost never as much of an issue as the bias people have accused of based on race and city vs. suburban issue. Or even city public school vs. city Catholic school.

Peace

If I took myself off of every game where someone might think I was bias, I might not ever ref. I ref my alma mater occaisionally. I see some of our coaches at the golf course. I've even golfed with a few of them in the yearly ref golf tournament. One former coach was my high school algebra teacher. I ref at the HS in the town where I live. I will be reffing at the Community College where I attended this year. Where would it end?

I once had a coach accuse me of favoritism because he knew that my wife worked in the town where I was reffing.

Oops. <font> </font>

Well....this might be kinda appropriate:
http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/nc/Crayon.gif

Wonder if Tiny is gonna call me a "prick" too now.....:D

As one can see by this entire thread, it is all a matter of ones opinion. I acted ill mannered due to the fact that you were offended by my comments. I was neither a **** nor offensive in my opinion, until you decided to comment on something that I perceived to be offensive to me.

In closing, calling me a **** does little to me. I KNOW I am a *** at times...we all are including the person that you look at in the mirror in the morning.

One is allowed two typing errors per document and still make an "A" in typing class! You flunked!

:p

....due South