2 T's on me?
 

8th gr boys tourny, actually it's tryouts for their school district, so they play 5min running qtrs... I'm working solo since thats all they pay for, 5th game of the day, during an intermission, the "director" comes up to me and informs me that parents are complaining that I'm not calling all the contact and that I should start calling more fouls, because if I don't have the game more under control someone is going to get hurt. I explained what incidental contact was and she walked away. minutes later another director comes up, (by the way neither of these "directors" even had the courtesy or professionalism to introduce themselves prior to the game starting). so this director walks up says don't you know this is competitive basketball and we feel you don't belong out here and we are going to take step 2 and either you can leave or go to the other gym where its less competitive. all this has been said right smak in front of all the fans. after finishing the qtr, I discussed it with the official on the neighboring court and he suggested that if the directors were not supportive I should just leave.
So I did.
ever seen that happen?:D

by the way, I've been reffing for years....

Not worth the money to take the abuse.

Buh-bye.

Personally, I wouldn't have waited until the end of the quarter.

Why even put yourself in a position where you have to work 5 games by yourself? Is that the kind of ball you normally work? :confused:

In the past, in order to get on the floor during pre-season, I have worked for one official's wages with a partner. We split the check and got a tune-up.
mick

I agree with JR. NOT worth that. they didn't even speak to you in private. Bull crap..

You also could have asked them if they were from Mars if you know what I mean.


And what kind of moron has parents in the stands for tryouts? Talk about starting fires so you have to put them out later.

Not worth it... if for some odd reason I had a metal whistle in my pocket... I would of handed it to the director and said call the game you want then -- see ya!

Take the pea out first ahead of time though.:D

And Chuck would likely say 'would have' not 'would of'.

Let's just say they had a scheduling mess up for the first game. I'd have stayed and worked it but bye bye for game #2 if help has not arrived yet.

Let's just say I was still there when the director thought it was a good idea to say something about my calls, he'd have just volunteered to take over that court as "I know for reals I'd been Audi!":cool:

Usually during the pre-season we might work for no money or a partial fee as well. I do not ever know that we do not have a least 2 officials. HS scrimmages usually involve 3 officials.

I would have stayed and worked by myself a game of this nature, even if there was a mess up. I would not tolerate this kind of disrespect considering I am working by myself. I would have gone home on my own.

Peace

>>"director" comes up to me and informs me that parents are complaining <<

I'd stop him right here and say, "sir, I'm not interested in their complaints."

>>because if I don't have the game more under control someone is going to get hurt.<<

IF he gets off this idiotic statement, I calmly explain to him that this statement is total BS. The game is already under control and calls on contact that is not illegal does not gain control, even if it were lost. Finally, a whistle is never going to heal an injury, so foul calls and injuries are totally independent of each other.

If he's still standing there, I take the whistle out of my pocket and say, "since I'm the only one here, then you take this whistle and assist me.

Also, the fact that this is tryouts indicates that the players have had little or no coaching up to this point probably. If this is a group of aggressive 8th graders with a limited skill level, in the first place no way one ref is going to see all the contact, and in the second place, all the whistles in the world will not stop it.

I think I would have had some fun with it by blowing the whistle on every single contact and near-contact. Anything that remotely resembles the possibility of contact gets a whistle! It's a running clock...see if I can foul everybody out! You want whistles....you got whistles!!! Maybe they might possibly get the message.

This is an example of where we r today as a society. Suggestion: whenever someone say something to you as stupid as these two just repeat it back to them... so let me get this straight. I'm out here away from my family working 5 games that are normally worked by three doing a job that can not be judge by the bias eye. and you are suppose to be neutral and a manager not a peacemaker. Either you want me to do my job and get through this and u do yours or you can continue to try to please everyone and ref these yourself. Ur chioce. Either way you will pay me.
hint; whenever u ref one stand on the coaches side of the floor. That way you see everything they see.

Thanks Zeke, never thought of that.

i'm here for u brother.

Nope, don't agree with that one at all.

If you're by yourself, you tell the coaches right up front that you don't want any b!tching. You also need to keep an eye on the bench...and the benches. No way do I want the coaches <b>behind</b> me, especially in a game where it's almost guaranteed that I'm gonna miss something because I'm all alone. If you're cross-court, you can see the coaches anyway if they wanna make some kinda point with you, and you sureasheck can also see if he or his bench is starting to get out of hand too.

Do you honestly believe that a coach might agree with a close call that went against him just because you're on his side of the court? I sureasheck don't. Coaches want <b>all</b> the close calls.

Working opposite gives you a better overall vision of the other concerns that may come up during the game- timing, scoring, subs, bench conduct, etc.- in addition to basically giving you the same view of the on-court action as if you were working the other side. It makes more sense to me to work opposite the scorer's table. Jmo.

No problem I understand your point but I think you are missing mine. First, you don't make points with coaches from across the floor. Unless you want to get in a shouting match across the floor with coach which is never good. Are you afraid to be in a trail position when you are working a three man and your back is to coahes and benches and you have to deal with the sidelines? i doubt it. You should try it and then critique it.
Now court awareness should be in your game. I bet you are aware of what is going on behind you beside you and around you when you work. If coach disagree with a close call and he will you just address at the appropriate time or stick your hand up and say I hear you and move on. Across the floor...he is going to go out of his way to make his point or get your attention.
Subs...no problem. You won't miss that major aspect of the game. Bench conduct...no problem. If someone acts out you will know. Trust me.

By the you can also work on the floor a little too. Your first priority is to work the plays. Coach disagrees that's when your game management skills kick in a defuse and set the tone for your courage job of referee solo.

No, I didn't miss your point. I completely disagreed with your point, and I still do...for the reasons that I stated in my previous post.

1) Believe me, the last thing that is on my mind in any game, let alone one at the youth level like the one that we are discussing, is worrying about making points with any coach. Just make what you think is the proper call/no call out on the court and t'hell with what the coach thinks. Sorry, but I've always been very leary of partners whose main concern was pleasing the coaches. If the coach gets outa line, it doesn't really matter whether he calling you an azzhole quietly behind your back or yelling it at you across the court. It's not <b>where</b> or how loud he saying something; it's <b>what</b> he saying that determines your response.

2) You get the exact same court awareness cross-court as you do from in front of the benches, with the <b>added</b> benefits of being able to see what the benches and scoring table are doing. And if a coach disagrees with a close call, he's sureasheck gonna let you know about his disagreement no matter where you are on the court.

3) Yup, and you can, and should, work out on the floor cross-court too, depending on the circumstances. There's no real extra benefit from either side imo. You just keep moving to try and get in the best possible position to get the best view of the play that you can- no matter what side you're on. And you can also use your game-management skills from anywhere on the court too.

Hey, we just have different personal opinions on this and we disagree, is all. No big deal.

To me this is the most important part of working alone. I agree with this whole hearted.

Smoke

I guess I just haven't had that many bad experiences with coaches b/c I don't operate under the "coach is my enemy" philosophy. The few occassions I have worked 1-man, I haven't had any problems with coaches (including one game with the biggest a-hole on the Peninsula). And I have never had a problem with a bench (1-man, 2-man, or 3-man). Any out-of-line comment from bench personnel I loudly announce for all to hear that no further comments will be tolerated. That ALWAYS has done the trick for me. And I don't need to be "facing" the bench to be able to "manage" the bench, my ears and peripheral vision serve me well.

And a coach letting me know he doesn't agree with a "close-call" of mine isn't the end of the world. Most coaches get their complaint off their chest and move on. And the coaches who ask for an explanation are just happy that I gave them the courtesy of an answer.

My last and final comment...I said you get the same VIEW by being on the same side of the coaches. Period. I didn't say you have to please them. You read that in. Totally. Now your next little statemnet pisses me off. your leariness of partner who please coaches...you can keep that and write it to someone else. Don't question my handling of coaches...I never implied I was out to please anyone. And I take exception to that. how do you get please out of being on the same side of the court and having the same view. I think having refereed in some of those most prestige leagues in the country and double figure years in the NCAA tournament....I might have a little clue on how to deal with coaches.

Zeke, you used the phrase "make points" with the coaches. I think you meant that you could speak to them and make your point without yelling across the court. I think JR took you to mean that you were trying to earn "brownie points" from the coaches.

I think it was a simple misunderstanding of that phrase.

Oh, my !</font>

Cool. I'm having a bad morning my aplolgies to everyone.

This seems like a perfect illustration of why it is NEVER , under any circumstances, a good idea to try to call a game single handed. I don't care what level, age, size of gym/court. It always ends badly.

Neither do I, and I also never said anything like that that anywhere either. What I said was that you can use the <b>exact same</b> game management skills from cross-court as you can from in front of the benches. In 3-man coverage, are the official(s) tableside the only ones able to use those skills? The officials across the court can't?:confused:

How can you have a quiet conversation with a coach from the opposite side of the court? :confused:

Blow the whistle and walk over there.

It's easy

Coach: "HEY CHUCK! GET YER HEAD OUTTAYERAZZ! YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!

Chuck: "whisper whisper whisper..."

Coach: "WHA???! HOW CAN I HEAR YOU FROM ALL THE WAY OVER THERE??!"

Chuck: "whisper whisper whisper..."

:rolleyes:

Yeah, it's a pretty dumb statement JR made. Maybe he needs a time out?

That sentence tells me all I need to know about you, Zeke.

Don't question your handling of coaches? Excuse my language, but you can go straight to hell. If I don't agree with any of your posts, I sureshell <b>am</b> gonna question 'em. That's the whole idea of this forum; not just swallowing the kool-aid.

And believe me, I also sureashell am not as impressed at all with your credentials as you obviously are. Why don't you post your complete resume, Mr. Big Time? Do you really think that's gonna change my mind? There's other D1 officials on this forum, on both the Mens and Womens sides. I don't see them saying "I'm right because I'm a D1 official". There's also quite a few posters with solid D2, D3 and NAIA schedules. There are plenty of officials here also that are excellent high school officials, and because of job or family committments have chosen not to follow the college route. It hasn't stopped them from doing state championships and having other officiating accomplishments. It also doesn't mean that they are automatically not as good as you are, believe it or not.

If you think that you are always right simply because you are a D1 official, then I think that you really, really need a reality check. All you're doing is telling everybody below your exalted (in your mind) level that "you peons don't know squat". Well, that's just wrong as far as I'm concerned, Zeke.

I've never posted my resume ever on this site. That's because anything that I, or anyone else, that makes a post here should be judged on the merits of that post alone, not on the pedigree of the poster, as you seem to believe.

Iow, condensed version, I still disagree with you, Zeke. :) Get over it.

Um, walk across the court maybe?

Chuck, this ain't a freaking NCAA game. It's a kid's game that you're trying to work alone.

By definition, this ends the "quiet" part.

I don't think it matters what kind of game it is. You can't use the "exact" same skills and techniques when you're across the floor. That's my only point.

Hmmm, not sure what that's supposed to mean, Mick. The point of the "quiet conversation" that I mentioned is NOT to draw attention to the fact that you're having it. If I have to walk across the floor (whether I blow the whistle first or not) to have the conversation, I can't help but draw attention to it. If it works for you, fine. I don't particularly like to do it.

Mick, I agree with Chuck on this. Obviously if you're table side C or T there is the potential for a coach to be talking quietly into the back of your head. This sitch requires a completely different approach than when the coach is "communicating with" (read screaming at) you from across the floor.

Well, then I disagree with your only point too. I think you can.

No official "likes to" have to walk across the floor for a quiet conversation; I have only done it a few times. Yet, it can settle a coach's concerns and get the game back on track. [But, shucks! You know this stuff better than I.];)

:D

Peace

Yes, Sparky.
Obviously, and certainly I agree that a coach cannot whisper across the court and still be heard. But my conversation with the coach, my game management techniques do not change merely because I crossed to the coach.

Okay, Rut.
I confess.
Once, I walked across and quietly "whacked" a guy. :)

I'm sure that's true, Mick. But you can't use them when you're standing on the other side of the floor. That's my point. JR disagrees with me. For the life of me, I can't understand why.

Well, you've pushed the encounter into a whole new level by stopping the game to confront the coach.

There are only 2 outcomes here IMO:

1. coach publicly backs down (which is fine)
2. coach gets T'ed (which is fine)

Who pushed the encounter ? Me?
Did I confront the coach, or approach the coach, or make myself available to the coach ?
Dunno.

In order:

1. Not you
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes

In any event, and I think this is Chuck's point (geeze I HATE that we agree), there's quite a difference between a private conversation and a public confrontation. That's all.

Um, didn't I say too in a post above that you can walk across the floor? Note that I didn't say that you also had to necessarily stop the game to do so. You do what feel's right at that particular point in the game to keep the game moving and under control. If it's stopping the game for a second, fine. If it's going over when you get a chance, that's fine too imo.

Can someone point out to me where I said in any post to date that you should have a public confrontation? Going over to quietly answer a coach's concerns is hardly a public confrontation imo. It's only a public confrontation if the coach wants to make it a public confrontation when you get over there.

I think the only difference is game stoppage.

If the table-side official turns away from the players during a dead ball, or if the official jogs 50' across the court, the difference is infinitesimal.
.

Jeez, I must be speaking Russian or something. If you're crossing the floor to have that conversation, JR, then you're not on the opposite side of the court anymore!

To recap: You said you could use the exact same game management skills from the opposite side of the court. I disagree.

Now you say that you can use the exact same game management skills from the opposite side of the court as long you cross the court first. Finally, I agree.

It's no suprise that you both agree.
The only difference on the subject I saw was whether crossing the floor was a mechanic or was it game management technique.
Looked like a mechanic semantic to me. :)
mick

The only reason we now agree is that JR is no longer talking about being on the opposite side of the court. That's the part that I objected to. You can't have that quiet conversation while you're standing opposite the table, no matter how good your game management skills are.

And you know that JR and that coach cannot sign?:)

JR,

Nowhere in Zeke's posts did he convey the type of message you are saying he did. He is saying what has worked for him. Obviously it is has been successful for him.

Chuck, I'm staying out of this one! LOL!

BadNewsRef,

I agree with you on this. I think this is the case where people on the internet like to make a mountain out of a molehill. I guess if you mention anything you have done and what success it has that has to be giving your resume. Then certain people can say how many state finals they have worked and that is OK. Oh well, another day in the life. ;)

Peace

And I'm saying that the opposite has worked for me..... and if it worked for me, then just as obviously my method was successful for me also.

Or were implying something else?

Is not most of this discussion based on each of our <b>opinion</b>? I do not know anything we have talked about in this thread that did not deal with an opinion.

I would agree that a D1 official in itself does not make their <b>opinion</b> right, but it sure means they have a little more credibility with me and many others that are reading this than someone who is not on the level.

I do not think right or wrong is an issue. After all we are talking </b>opinion</b>.

Peace

Well, that's interesting.

Does that also mean that Chuck's opinion should have more credibility than yours now if Chuck does some D1 games this year, which is a real possibility? And Tony's opinion should have more credibility than yours because he's worked state finals in 2 sports and you haven't? And Zeke's opinion is always right...say...compared to Mick or BobJ's opinion?

I'll haveta remember that enlightened logic the next time that you and Chuck get into it. :)

And how do you <b>know</b> that some of the other opinion-givers on this forum aren't D1 officials also if they don't broadcast their resumes?

I do agree with this thread being nothing but personal opinion though.

I'm just saying from what I read Zeke wasn't imposing his thoughts or experiences as being "the right and only way" nor that his experiences as a D1 officials were anymore relevant than anyone else's experiences.

I have met "Zeke" at a camp and he is very approachable and open for discussion and/or debate.

From my own personal experiences and from reading what "Zeke" has posted here, I do not see the "I'm right because I'm a D1 official" attitude that you attribute to "Zeke". JMHO.

BadsNews, if you look back, the exact quote from Zeke was <i>"Don't question my handling of coaches"</i>, followed by his resume. If you think that <b>isn't</b> imposing his thoughts or experiences, so be it. Personally, I can't see any other way to interpret it.

JMHO too.

geeze...I never get included in these lists...

http://home.comcast.net/~fritzb1/sadbanana.gif

Absolutely !

And Dan's opinion should be more credible because...well....he's Dan.

And never the twain shall meet....

Even on the twain twack....

And I shouldn't be included. I'm such an idiot. LOL. (This is an inside joke that only Dan understands. Although I'm sure most people here knew that I'm an idiot.)

That is up to the people that read this board. I cannot speak for others that read this board. I would say if Chuck did get there and stayed there, it would add a lot to his how I view him. Partly because I have some idea of what it takes to get there. If you are a D1 official, someone is putting their job on the line to hire you. It is not like supervisors just put someone in place that has not earned some trust and proven on some level they can do the job.

So do you want a guy that works D1 only to talk about the JH or JV games they work? I also did not read where Zeke said, "I am a D1 official and you are not." I think he stated he works that level and a certain technique seems to work for him. I have heard guys broadcast they worked State Finals and I do not see the same point of view made when that has taken place (and it happens much more often). At least a D1 official beat about thousands of officials for that one slot. He has my respect even if I would feel that he was not a better official than others here.

Peace

Let's not forget that some referees get/don't get D1 contracts/opportunities because of where they live. I have personally had this very conversation with a D1 assignor. There are some officials that aren't particularly great that get jobs and others that are better that don't for this reason alone. I personally have also worked with referees who have strong ties to assignors that get jobs because they are loyal to that person, not because they are the best referee available. I don't necessarily think that this makes a referee more credible.

There are a lot of factors as to why people do not get a shot at the Division 1 level. Even with those small factors, it is not like the average official is going to get that kind of opportunity.

You show me someone that is hired at any job, I will show you someone who is just as qualified but did not get the same opportunity. It is a myth in this world that the "most qualified" get all the jobs. That is not true in any job in or outside of officiating. And when you get a D1 official that has finally made it, they are scrutinized on a level most of us would not be able to handle.

I know when I work my games; no one is telling me what I did right or wrong, every trip up and down the floor. I might only hear about something when I mess up or if a coach complains. It is a completely different level of scrutiny that does that and many of the best officials would not be able to handle that.

Peace

I'm going to open myself for some criticism, but here we go. Everyone on this thread brings value. Yes some people due judge what others may say or comments they make. Some of us may come across as they are better than others. I think we are dealing with ego and the way we may respond may be interpreted differently than what was meant. (I know Chuck is going to correct my grammar that's ok) Just like the rules as much as some are clear cut some are left to interpretation and can be interpreted differently. We all bring a lot of experience (except me only 6 years) and we all won't agree with each other. I found this thread to be a place where I can share or learn something without being judged. I bet more people would possible share but are afraid to because someone is going to jump (over the back ) get joke. So there!!!!

Well said.

[sigh !]</font>

I'm going against what I said would be my last comment on this but here we go. First, the comment of my resume was meant as this is not first rodeo. I treat others as peers. No different. I didn't state what I said to offend anyone. you took it and totally twisted it. Would you perfer that I make suggestions if I only work pick up games at the YMCA. I respect officials at all areas. If I offended you that wasn't my original intent but its obvious this forum is not the proper one for us to have this conversation. To many gaps and misinterpetations. Thank you. I'm over it. Peace be with you.

I didn't twist anything. I reacted to what <b>you</b> wrote.

I don't intend to get in any flame wars with you, but I'll also stick with my original impression of you.

'Nuff said.

No problem. That impression and your opinion I value. I always welcome the experience and worth of my fellow brothern in this cruel advocation. Every level is relevent. This isn't personal for me. I'm not here to form a opinion or impression just to learn and help. Its sad that you have to hate me because of a forum. Real sad.

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