Greece?
 

Greece?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...a-greece_x.htm

Freaking Greece?

Isn't that sumpthin' ?
...For the little guys.:)

WOW. With not one current NBA player on their roster. I wonder what the combined salary of the Greek team totals. Probably about 1/3 of what Wade and LeBron make on endorsements. SAD, SAD, SAD, day for American hoops.

This has been coming for a long time and the USA star babies and their big money got their butts wooped by guys who just love to play the game. Sure they get paid but I bet the whole Greece's team salary wouldn't add up to what James makes.

I think the NBA is the new professional wrestling....the college game is the best pure basketball there is.

Saaaaawhheeeeet. Go Greece!

This hasn't been coming for a long time, this has been *happening* for a long time.

I watched about 2 min. of the US/Germany game the other night - watched LeBron pull up and shoot a three during a 3-on-1 break...he missed, Battier rebounds and kicks it back out to Carmelo who bricks a three that is rebounded by LeBron who dribbles back out and shoots a three that hits the backboard about 6 inches from the top and Germany rebounds, throws an out let pass, guy drives to the basket, hits the lay-in and gets fouled and makes the free throw...turned to the Sci-Fi channel and watched old Battlestar Gallactica reruns.

Maybe we should just send our NCAA Men's Championship team instead of all these NBA guys who obviously don't give a rat's ***! I hope they lose the Bronze game also!

FWIW, I think the USA players care, and probably care deeply, about the games and how they perform. I believe that they are trying their hardest while they are out on the court.

What I think people in the U.S. need to come to terms with is that, while the USA/NBA may have the best athletes in the basketball world, they do not have the best basketball players.

For example, the USA team left 14 points on the free throw line during the Greece game. I'm guessing that there are a lot of players all around the world -- yes, even in the United States -- who are shooting 100-200 free throws every day. I'm guessing that the world's "greatest athletes" are not among the players who are doing that....

We don't have our best players in Japan, where is Kobe, Shag, Garnett! Our guys just don't care, they get paid too much money to be bothered to play in theses events.

Well, Kobe is on the team but had knee surgery recently. Shaq's best days are behind him. Garnett wouldn't have helped much.

Top 6 from NCAA champ & top 6 from NCAA runner-up. That would worth watching. I can't remember the last international contest I watched, but lots of electronic gadgets had not been invented yet. And it probably pre-dated the 10 panel ball.

You might like to watch it, but Florida / UCLA would have lost by 30. There is no way an NCAA team could compete with the top 8 international teams.

Greece plays basketball the way it's supposed to be played: pass, cut, screen, layup. Defend. Repeat.

Greece did not miss big shots. There was a point in the game when everything they threw up went in. Every time the USA made a run, Greece would hit a 3 point shot or make a difficult lay-up. Greece played out of their mind. The pick and roll worked all night and the USA could not stop it. Greece played a great game, they deserve all the credit.

Peace

We had some of our best players there. I'm quite confident that USA would beat Greece in a 7-game series. But the other countries are close enough to us now that "on any given night." We are no longer good enough to beat other countries without our A game. Give Greece credit. They put together an awesome game on a night when the USA didn't play their best. End of story once again.

Z

They gave up sending the college kids in 1988 because they were getting their azz handed to them. And they were NCAA all-star teams. Basketball US went to the pros because the NCAA players were losing so much.

Obviously many others countries have learned to play the game at it's highest level, now the question is will the American's learn the art of good sportsmanship from the rest of the world? :confused:

The point I was making was that all-star teams are not necessarily the best option. Guys who play well together is a much better way to go. Heck, you could send Miami & Dallas [you'd have to go deeper than 6 with Dallas obviously] and you would have a better result. Otherwise everyone thinks their role is "Give me the ball and I'll score."

SImply got beat by a better team
 

I think that's all there is to it- the USA got beat by a better team, simple as that. Honestly, I wonder if the Heat, or the Pistons, or the Mavs would beat Greece. Team USA hasn't won a major international tournament since 2002. It seems like when we point out the fundamental flaws with USA basketball, the underlying theme is that's why we haven't been winning tournaments in international play. No, sorry, that's not why. It's because our excellent teams are getting beat by better teams. It hasn't sunk in yet. In peoples imaginations, the best basketball on the planet is still being played in the USA, but for this reason, or that reason (excuses), we are getting beat by inferior competition.

I think we do the game an injustice, and I've been guilty of it too. But it's time to wake up. We insult quality basketball with our misplaced assumptions of some kind of latent superiority. As if all we need to do is get things straightened out, and all will be back to normal (USA dominance) in the world of international basketball. Maybe this is normal now. A level playing field, no longer dominated by the country that invented the sport.

Maybe there's nothing "wrong." Why do we just assume that something has to be wrong with USA basketball? When we do that, we make the underlying assumption that these international teams really are not that good, that they aren't supposed to be beating out boys, that in order for them to beat the USA, something has to be wrong. Maybe we just got beat by a better team. I mean, that's usually what we assume when one team wins and the another team loses- that the better team won.

I don't even want to hear the, "we got better individual players" comments. Or, "we are more athletic." So what, you still got beat. It's a team game. Even if it were true, which it isn't, better more athletic players losing doesn't expose what is wrong with development any more than it tells you who is better.

Is there problems with the development of youth players in the USA? Sure there is. Can we do better? Absolutely. But lets not fool ourselves. There will be over 100 international players in the NBA this season. People just need to get it thru their heads that we aren't the best any longer. From year to year there may be other teams that are better than the USA squad- no matter who we put on the team. The USA will never again dominate international basketball- and that's a good thing. We may win more gold medals, but it's always going to be competitive.

The USA team and player development in this country are not in the same ball park. You cannot even compare the two things in any way. Kids do not grow up to play in the Olympics anymore. Kids grow up wanting to be in the NBA.

I know you do not want to hear this but THE UNITED STATES HAS BETTER PLAYERS. The problem is you are not going to get all the better players at each position from the USA when those players play in the NBA. The NBA Season ended in June. Training camp starts in September/October. Not many players want to sacrifice time off to play in international play. The USA team trained for 2 months. So players like Wade only had a few weeks off.

The Greece team did not have one player on their team that was in the NBA. But all those players had been together for years and years. There was a reason that George Mason got to the Final Four this year. That team played together and had more experience. International play works the same way.

Peace

Just for the record, the last time the US won internationally was 2000. They were 6th in the 2002 Worlds Championship played in Indy.

So, NBA clubs are overlooking some of the best US players in favor of inferior players from abroad? Nice one...
The idea that national teams (other than USA) play together for years - do you really think that other nations have their teams play together for 4 years before they send them to a competition? You don't think these players play in other leagues? I know you don't want to hear this, but THERE IS BASKETBALL OUTSIDE USA. And these guys are playing it...And they are kicking some ***.
In the end, basketball is a team sport, and you don't win the game even if you do have five of the best individual players in the world on the court. You win when you have the best team. Having a college coach has certainly helped this time around, and finishing 3rd is certainly an improvement on being 6th in 2002.

Of course there is basketball being played outside of the US. I will say this, who outside the US that has come to the NBA is a bona fide Hall of Famer (they cannot have attended college in the US, so Hakeem does not count)? Most of the recent draft picks from foreign countries cannot get off the bench on mediocre teams. And the foreign players that do play played college ball in the US before going to the NBA. Just give me one player that played outside the US, was drafted by the NBA and that is now a can't miss Hall of Famer? Now when you find that one player please let me know. The only dominant player outside of the United States is Steve Nash and he is from Canada. Nash also went to an American College. Even Dirk Nowitzki is a very good player, but until this year was not anywhere near dominating and when he needed to come through, he failed big time. Of course many players have come from outside the US and have NBA success, but I do not know if you can claim they are the best players year in and year out. Outside of the old Soviet Union, not many teams had any period of dominance other than the United States.

Your argument seems about as pointless as someone from this country saying that some of the best soccer players play in the United States. Now you would consider that comment ridiculous if that was said by someone on this board from this country. Now basketball is becoming more and more international, but the kids here play basketball more than just about any other sport. Most officials in this county can find a game 12 months out of the year to officiate. Kids here play in their sleep and in many cases play on multiple teams in one off-season. Michael Jordan did not play for Zimbabwe; he played for the NC Tar Heals and the Chicago Bulls. I am sure if Pele was from the United States everyone might not be as big of a basketball junkie, but that is not the case and some of histories greatest basketball players happened to play here and not in another country.

Peace

Basketball Hall of Fame
 

Dražen Petrović:NBA player (Portland Trailblazers, New Jersey Nets), Born in Croatia, Did not play at an American college or university (University of Zagreb, Croatia), Member of the Basketball Hall of Fame (Inducted 2002).

One guy.

I guess that proves the point. ;)

Peace

Vlade Divac...Joins Hakeem Olajuwon and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar as the only players in NBA history to amass 13,000 points, 9,000 rebounds, 3,000 assists and 1,500 blocked shots. And coming from Serbia, he also never played college ball in States.

Yes, it proves the point, although not the one you are thinking of. ;)
My argument was that having five great individuals does not mean you have a great team, and as basketball is a team sport you need a great team to win consistently.
Not that I want to poke any more holes in your story, but Yugoslavia won 5 WC titles. Which is kinda more than the old Soviet Union, or USA for that matter.

I do not think Valde Divac is going to make the Basketball Hall of Fame anytime soon. We was a decent player, but not a Hall of Famer. He was not even a dominate player or a go to guy on any of his teams.

Where have you been? Did I not already make the "team" point?

My main point is you are not going to get many foreign players that are considered the best in the world. You should have referenced Drazen Dalipagic who is Yugoslavia born and never played in the USA or the NBA. Also understand the Basketball Hall of Fame is not about the NBA only. College players and coaches, NBA players and coaches, international players and coaches and contributors to the game all can be inducted.

Either way it goes, the USA is where basketball is played at its best. I do not know how FIBA officials see any better talent on a night in and night out basis like an NBA official.

Hall of Fame is the criteria for greatness? I mean, the place is a museum, and sure, it's dedicated to basketball, but you can't make this a world-wide measure of greatness.
There are 12 referees inducted, and only two in the past 20 years (Earl Strom 1995, and Zigmund Mihalik in 1986). Are you suggesting that the world has seen only two great referees in the past 20 years?
Hall of Fame is not an international institution, it is an american organization, and it's primary focus will be always on the american game, which is fair enough. But rest assured that if, say, europeans were to form their basketball hall of fame, it would not include most of the 70 coaches in the US version, but would include many europeans who have helped develope basketball in europe.
I would find more credibility in looking at the stats and saying, hell, this guy can play! IMHO

First of all it is very rare that any officials in any sport ever make the Hall of Fame. At least that is the case in this country. It is not like officials have stats that are easily measurable. Unless you say how many big games they worked and how long they have worked, then that is not something I can answer easily.

Secondly, I do not think most would care from this country if they were in a European Hall of Fame.

Peace

Me too.

When was the last time someone couldn't get a Euro league contract & had to move to North America & settle for the NBA as a place to play pro ball?

tia.

Exactly... And that's why so very few people outside the US give a rats *** about the HoF. The goal is not to find a universal element of greatness, but to document mainly local history.

And to answer Dan at the same time, you can't compare leagues with tournaments. I never questioned the quality of players in NBA (or, for that matter, of the officials). My response was to comments how WC and other international competitions suck both in terms of the quality of the basketball, and in terms of officiating.

If you knew anything about this country you would realize that no one gives a damn about the HoF here either (as it relates to basketball). I bet most basketball fans have very little knowledge as to who is actually in the HoF.

The Pro Basketball HoF is a far 3rd to Football and Basketball.

Peace

Did you mean baseball's HoF?

Actually, 4th, if you count the Rock 'n Roll HoF in Cleveland as well. :D

Good job by Greece on Friday, but I think we saw the real Greece on Sunday morning against Spain. Without their pick-and-rolls going undefended, Greece was unable to score.

The US would beat Greece 9 times out of 10. It's just that the 1 in 10 came on Friday. They played as hard as they could and the result was success. Sort of the American dream, no?

The Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame seem to be a joke. They let anyone in that thing.

I did mean the baseball HoF.

Peace

True. They let M&M in......for 20 bucks.

Here's a picture of M&M when he found out it was $20 to get in...

http://jazzinternet.com/blues/pictur..._richard03.jpg

The simple fact is the Greece and other international teams play with heart and not with the pocket$$$$. Even some of the runaway games those team still gave it all they had. I'll bet anyone one team combined doesn't have the payroll that just any one player on the US team has. Yes the US is somewhat superior to most teams, but nitty gritty, get down to the best in the world, It could have been a 10 games series the US would have lost again and agian. They don't play with guts but the $$$$$$$$$.

Euro ball
 

I don't know, but I doubt that kids in Lithuania, Spain, Brazil, Italia, Turkey, Croatia, etc., grow up wanting to play in the Olympics. A euro youth player's first goal would be to make a domestic club team, and work his way up thru club play to the highest levels. From there they probably have the same dream as USA kids- they dream of playing in the NBA too, because that's where the $ is.

How is player development different? Specifically? Because that's where we have to start looking to do better, and even a cursory exmination exposes that the differences are so deeply entrenched that they are cultural. Brian Grasso wrote about observing unsupervised young players come into a gym in Switzerland and start warming up, compared to the same scene in ANY GYM USA. The Swiss kids began with 3-4 mins of range of motion and dynamic warm up movements w/o a ball. Then they paired up and did 2-3 mins of 1/2 court defensive slides against a zig-zag dribble. When they started shooting, they began from in close, obviously focusing on form, then gradually moving out further. Compare that to the same unsupervised scene in ANY GYM USA, we both know what it would look like- kids enter the gym off the dribble, and immediately start jacking uo three's.

Is it primarily that overseas they aren't training to peak early for HS and AAU? Is the problem that the shoe companies are running USA basketball at 18U and below? Is it that in practice we tend to emphasize defense for up to 1/2 of any given practice session, while overseas they focus more on offense and scoring? It's still more similar than different- played with a 29" round ball, 5 players per side, rules very similar, objective the same (to score). It is entirely comparable, in fact by doing the comparing, that is where we can start to identify where USA has fallen behind developmentally, imo.

Is Wade the only player who plays almost year round? Do we know how much time off euro players and teams have had? I tried to figre it out on the internet, and it looks like the top euro players are pretty much going year round. In any case- This is exactly what I was taliking about- when WE say these kinds of things (our best players MIA, tired from long NBA season, short training camp) the assumption is that these are VALID REASONS for failure. Like, "We would have won, but...." Or, "Yeah we got beat -again- but they shot the lights out, otherwise we would have won." The underlying setiment being yeah sure we lost -again- but we're really still better than them. Excuses. Did you see where 2 nights later in the Final, Spain whupped Greece's *** without tournament MVP Pao Gasol, their best player? The next "fall back" excuse is the 7 game series point. As in they could never beat us in a 7 game series. Seriously though, I think it's legitimately questionalbe that in 6 more games, that team USA could have done any better defending the pick & roll? No one in the NBA ever did with Sloan's P & R when Stockton and Malone were running it. When Utah did get beat, it wasn't because they couldn't get the P&R.

There's nothing wrong with the make up of the USA team, imo. It was put together with FIBA play in mind. How could it be better? Maybe more role players like Battier? Would it be better with Kobe on it? D Wade, Lebron and Melo are creative enough athletic scorers, and it's even debatable that D Wade and LeBron are just as good if not better volume scorers than Kobe. Who then? Maybe they need Shaq? Do we really think Shaq would "fix" the team with his presense on it? I think the wide lane would hurt low post game. I think we'd see him standing at the short corner a lot, out of the paint, and out of his range. I also think it's likely that he might have difficulty matching up- because you know the opponents would spread out, maybe even go open post, and make Shaq come out on the perimeter on defense. Duncan would probably help, at least he has that nice mid range jumper he likes to shoot off the glass.

I know I'm probably on thin ice here- I've seen what can sometimes happen in here when a coach disagree with a referee, but this is just basketball, it's not personal, right"? I respect the hell out of you guys for the job you do. In fact over the years I've come to admire the job you do and the professional way you do it more often than I can say that about fellow coaches. I just wanted to make it known- I'm not a hater. In fact, I refereed my 2nd season of summer league ball at Mendocino JC for Coach Wieper this summer. Having paused to say that....

If "THE UNITED STATES HAS BETTER PLAYERS," as you claim, then it's at the game of one on one. Unfortunately the game of basketball isn't played one on one except for on playgrounds. The following is from the AP-

" SAITAMA, Japan -- As they warmed up before Friday's semifinal against Greece, the U.S. players put on a jam session for the fans. Dwight Howard dunked emphatically. Dwyane Wade bounced the ball off the backboard, caught it and stuffed. Elton Brand jammed an alley-oop pass. Finally, LeBron James flew down the lane for a tomahawk. As the crowd roared, the Greeks lined up at the other end and shot free throws. The moment foretold Greece's 101-95 victory in the semifinals of the world championships."

I'd have to agree- the USA players are better 1 on 1 players and they can certainly establish that durring warm ups. Unfortunately Greece went on to establish who had the better TEAM. I'm just tired of excuses, that's all.

I do not hear anyone making excuses. I think the reality is the WC is not a major concern no more than the World Cup is thought of in Soccer in this country. If it was, all the best players in this country would be knocking each other over to get on the team. Instead many of the better players take the time off.

Even with winning the Bronze medal, no one is jumping off a cliff because we did not win the Gold. The novelty wore off when the USA was dominating in Seoul and a few years after that. To many of these other countries this is a big deal. Not sure how that will change, but they get their best players every tournament and we have to decide who is not coming rather than whom to leave off the team.

Peace

Well thought out and written post imo, Coach.

Agreed. The Overseas players are better fundamentally than the Americans. Well documented. We are to into the dunks and sportscenter to concentrate on the basics.

And now the USA womens' team goes down. :eek:

Like it or not, European basketball is here to stay. :cool:

I'm getting in on this one way late, but this post reminded me of a HBO Real Sports segment about basketball camps. They compared European camps with American Camps. The European camps are like American camps used to be as in they run drills, run drills and run drills. American campers play meaningless games, play meaningless games, and play meaningless games. The point of the story is that our player are extremely gifted, but they don't learn to play fundamental basketball anymore. In fact, they claimed some of the NBA clinicians they broughth over had a hard time with some of the drills they were making their high schoolers do. It was pretty interesting.

Just got back from a business conference and Magic Johnson was one of the keynote speakers. Someone asked him the question as to whether we would dominate again. He said there was only one dream team. He said that Coach Daly split them up East vs West for practices and that those were the most intense 'games' he has ever been a part of. He summed it up in that the Dream Team was a team. They wanted to be up by 30 at halftime. They didn't care who scored. And that today's player is different. And until that changes, we will not dominate again.

Now I did not watch any of the recent games and only read stuff in the paper or here or similar places. And there seemed to be one guy taking a lion's share of shots. It is not just International ball, either. Certain NBA teams have that problem as well and you know they will never win it all.

My point about the college teams is that they play as teams more than as 5 individuals. Here is an interesteing quiz...can anybody name the starting five for Greece without looking it up?

How many can name any of the starting five? :confused:

They played as a team so it is unlikely you COULD name them.

Lemme try....
1) Euclid
2) Thor
3) Thermopylae
4) Euripedes Imendedese....and
5) Hypotenuse.

How'd I do?

I was thinking John Travolta and Olivian Newton John. You said Grease right?

Z

Camron,
I can get the 2006 Pistons and the 1965 Michigan Wolverines. :)

I thought it was...

1. Pythagoras...who only ran from corner to corner across the court and sometimes right down the endline and sideline.
2. Socrates...thought too long before shooting and often got his shot blocked....never getting a score written down by his name
3. Aristotle...disagreed with the coach most the time
4. Achimedes....He was easy to defend since he only ran in circles and spirals and enjoyed just floating around
5. Hippocrates....promised not to hurt anyone while playing and as a result was a little soft on defense.

Coached by Oedipus who always had to consult his mother.