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Setting ball down
Inner city summer league...ages 18U...10 second clock, no shot clock. All teams but one are city HS teams preparing for upcoming season, including some younger kids trying to make each team. Remaining team is AAU travel. League allows this because primary focus is keeping kids off the streets. Games not involving AAU girls are very competitive...games with AAU girls are one-sided. Here's the rules question: After AAU team is well ahead, they are instructed by their coach to do some things that are often interpreted by the other teams as "rubbing it in". Believe it or not, this league has playoffs, so when some teams meet with AAU girls again there may be some difficult-to-control emotional responses. Most actions appear to be legal. One thing bugs me though...when AAU is safely in the lead with little time left in the half, they will dribble ball past half-court line, set the ball down, and get back on defense. Is this a violation? Delay? Unsportsmanlike? Thanks.
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You're thinking too much imo. Just referee the game. There's no rules against the action that you described. Maybe the AAU coach just want to work on his D....who knows, who cares?
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Leave it alone. |
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Agree... If I were that coach, I'd have my players keep playing but with restrictions on how they can play that will actually benefit them...such as:
If I were friendly with the coach, I might even make the suggestion that he try one or more of these things rather than just giving it to the other team. |
If they want to play defense, let them. Leave this alone and officiate as if it did not even happen.
Peace |
Here's another situation for you guys.
I've never done this, but know a guy who has a few times. In some of the summer tournaments you only get 3 timeouts per game. Now let's say you've got a sub that you need to get in for whatever reason. You can't get a whistle and you can't waste a time out. How would you react to the coach going, "____ (insert name) come over here and hand me the ball." The kid does as requested by the coach. The sub is at the table. Do you call an unsportsmanlike T or out of bounds? Does the score matter? etc? |
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Pretty straightforward..... |
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Would you let that coach and his team benefit from that act without doing something about it? |
So if the coach of the defensive team say or yell out "shoot the ball" and the player do so, will you give him a "t" for that action?
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Now, what would you do in those situations? |
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Nip it; nip it in the bud. |
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Fans in the stands often scream "shoot the ball" or say words deliberately to create an advantage for their team. When we hear it, do we always penalize the fans for such action? Even when we do decide to penalize the fans, we would probably do this once in every so many times that we hear it. So what constitute the referees for penalizing the coach and not the fans if both people were to say the same thing? And why is it that a defender can scream "dead" or "ball" when the dribble is dead and what makes that sporting vs. "give me the ball" or "shoot the ball" as unsporting? I am interested to know what you guys think. |
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2) Whatintheheck has the fans got to do with this play?:confused: Apples and oranges. The actions of the fans are completely irrelevant when it comes to judging whether a coach's actions are unsporting or not.....which is what the officials have to do in this case. If the fans do interfere with the play, then I'm also gonna take care of it, using the recommended way in the case book. 3) Players shouting "dead" or "shoot" aren't unsporting acts; it's that simple. Any official with any kind of experience at all knows the difference. |
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If I didn't like the player counting down, I imagine I would have said something to her coach. The use of the "glare" would probably not be understood unless the player was my kid, unless the player knew me very well. http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/conf44.gif mick<!-- / message --> |
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Just let it go IMO. 3...2...1... was probably yelled from the bench 10 minutes after the first peach basket got nailed up to a wall. Oh and as for the original post...ignore it. As someone else said it's much better than running the score up, as usually happens. |
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* 10 passes before shooting -- We still scored at will, which led to: * Layup attempts only * And on defense, all players had to stay inside the 3 point arc. We still won big, and shot 9 for 11 in the second half (1 missed layup and a missed 3-pointer), but at least we didn't rub it in, so to speak. |
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Here's a scenario I think it can be measured similarly. Is this an acceptable play by the defender? A5, facing his own basketball rebound the ball and on his way down he hears a shout down court that screams, "THROW ME THE BALL." A5, who is now in full control of the ball, thought one of his teammates was open for a fast break opportunity. A5 quickly pivot and throw the ball down court, and the pass is intercepted by B4. Every person at the gym knows B4 shout “THROW ME THE BALL” except for A5. But A5 committed the play. Can you still panelize B4 for saying “throw me the ball?” Or better yet give him a “t” for quote and quote “creating an advantage on the court?” If so, then why? If not, why not? Basketball is never fair. As an official, it is critical to enforce all of the rules and make sure the game flow smoothly. If a coach creates an advantage for his team (like spilling water to cause a player to fall, struck his foot out, throw things on the court, etc), then sure heck we gotta nail him. But the degree of creating an 'advantage' must be measured. As stated in the previous post, if they were in grade school, because of the talent of basketball, we can and should enforce something to prohibit the coach from doing it again. After all, for the grade school level is still about learning to sport of basketball. For this particular scenario, it is to me that a “bonehead” play was made by the offensive team. I just cannot see what the coach did wrong in terms of creating an advantage and thus deserving a “t. 3) Players shouting "dead" or "shoot" aren't unsporting acts; it's that simple. Any official with any kind of experience at all knows the difference. [/QUOTE] I know, I know – those are some words that can be said in the written rule of basketball. Now I also want to point this out. What if the entire team (all 5 players on the court) mumbles “dead” or “ball” while the ball is being dribbled? After a minute or two, it must get irritating – can it? I am interest to know what action you would take for this particular scenario? |
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Are you ever gonna post <b>anything</b> that's relevant to the original situation? You're judging a <b>coach's</b> actions, not completely different scenarios concerning players on the floor. And howinthehell can you say you're gonna enforce all of the rules when your advocating above to not enforce all of the rules <b>equally</b>? Do you really only make calls in favor of "smart" ballplayers, but refuse to make the same call if you feel a player is dumb? Lah me..... Jmo, but advising that an official should make a call dependant on whether that official feels that the player is dumb or not is inherently dumb in itself. Letting the coach commit an unsporting act and rationalizing away your refusal to penalize that unsporting act by blaming the <b>recipient</b> of the unsporting act is also just completely dumb imo. As I said, we disagree completely on this particular philosophy. You don't feel that the coach's actions are unsporting; I do. |
Not everyone is going to agree no matter how many ways you say it.
I am not even sure why this is even a heated discussion on any level. If you feel like a T is the only way you can handle this situation, then T everyone up to make you happy. If you feel nothing illegal has been done, then leave it alone. My expectations are very different in a JH game as compared to a college game. Also summer games have a different expectation then a regular season game. This is why it is called judgment. We never have to agree because we all will not have the same scrutiny on this issue because we do not all work for the same people.
Peace |
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My point I'm getting across is that same words can be said by two different people at the same time in the same game. Why do we weigh the coach's word more than the players if the outcome is the same? I can see we shouldn't compare a fan's action vs. a coach's. But for a player vs. a coach, their verbage (words they say on and off the court) should be treated the same..... I just don't see how it is "fair" to the coach if the players are allow to say it and not them. I only wish playing defense was that easy - "PASS ME THE BALL." "TWEET, 't'"!!! |
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I'm with Jurassic Ref on this one. A coach has no business trying to influence the play of the other team by interacting with them in any way. If this is allowed, it could lead to other more serious problems later in the game. I'll bet the opposing coach won't take it lightly, nor should he. Kids are taught to respect and listen to other coaches/adults so an attempt to trick a player by a coach is definately un-sportsmanlike.
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