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Wed Aug 08, 2001, 06:42pm
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In a recent game, team A1 did not like some of the officials decisions - paticularly one where the lead's view of a out of bounds ball was blocked by several players - so, when the trail could not help, he properly called a jump ball. One player told the ref he needed glasses - and promptly got a "T".
Thereafter, the players did not address the Ref directly but missed no opportunity (e.g., while lined up for free throws) to loudly "joke" with each other across the paint about how bad the Ref was. Since they were speaking to each other - not the Ref - albeit very loudly and almost in the administering officials face - I assume they could not be "T'd" per NFHS Rule 10-3-8a which defines unsportsmanlike conduct includes: "Disrespectfully addressing an official..." Since they were yelling at each other - not the Ref - this rule does not apply? How would you handle this disrespect to the officials? 
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Wed Aug 08, 2001, 06:55pm
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Simple answer - T time. I don't care if they're "addressing me". If they are that disrespectful and I hear it - WHACK!
Besides, the rule states that unsportsmanlike acts are not limited to those listed. So, what constitutes an unsportsmanlike act? Whatever I say it is. If a player or coach doesn't like it, they can join a tiddley winks league.
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Wed Aug 08, 2001, 07:31pm
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This is a T all day long! in your situation the administering official if he hears this needs to ring someone up, while the free throws are being shot the off official should get the captains together read them the riot act letting them know that none of the crew will
tolerate this.
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Wed Aug 08, 2001, 07:57pm
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I agree completely. If you're not talking to me, then you better not say it loud enough for me to easily hear.
WHACK!!
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 01:39am
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If the first one is just loud enough for you to barely hear it, try the "hairy eyeball" -- the parenting look that freezes the targeted child in the tracks. Chin down, eyebrows up, eyes focussed intently on the child's, lips clenched. Some kids get the point of this. I have two sons who get it, my daughter never did. Same on the court. If they get it, great. If not, and there's another comment, time to join the chorus here, WHACK!
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 07:10am
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It is unfortunate that as basketball officials it is now commonplace to deal routinely with this kind of b.s. I know when I played highshool ball 15-20 years ago, my coach would have "yanked" me so fast for this kind crap. With kids ball (rec. and highschool) I have a tendancy not to take any crap whatsoever from the players. In this situation where it seems stupidity has taken over their brains, you may have to "T" players more than once to get the message across, however, once they are sitting on the bench and not playing, the message is usually crystal clear!
__________________
Choose Your Words Wisely!
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 08:36am
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How would you handle this disrespect to the officials?
[/B][/QUOTE] Become a better official and gain some respect. Most players understand the game and know a blown or missed call. Although often their means to bring it to an official's attention may not be proper, we as officials must quickly evaluate if we got a good look or if we kicked one; then move on from there. If we're kicking calls throughout the game, we need to be our own best critic and do something about it...watch tape or get second opinions. It's part of becoming a better official.
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 09:10am
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Quote:
Most players understand the game and know a blown or missed call. Although often their means to bring it to an official's attention may not be proper, we as officials must quickly evaluate if we got a good look or if we kicked one; then move on from there. If we're kicking calls throughout the game, we need to be our own best critic and do something about it...watch tape or get second opinions. It's part of becoming a better official. [/B][/QUOTE] No one said that these officials "were kicking calls throughout the game." That's not what happened at all. Without regard to whether a call is missed or not, players complain about calls all the time. They always want the call to go their way. I think you're missing the point. If I kick a call, that's one thing. I'll let the coach bellyache about it to a point. "Sorry Coach, I missed it." But I'm not going to listen to the same bellyaching 10 trips down the floor later. He's going to get a stop sign and a T if he keeps it up. With regards to players, I don't have a problem with a player disagreeing with a call. But, again, when it comes to the point that they're joking about how bad they think an officials are, I'm not going to tolerate it. And I bet their coach wouldn't either if he could hear it. Do we joke and make comments about how bad a team is when we're standing in the FT lane? Young people need to learn to respect others. In other walks of life, when disrespect is shown, there are consequences. Basketball is no different.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 12:35pm
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Quote:
I think you're missing the point. If I kick a call, that's one thing. I'll let the coach bellyache about it to a point. "Sorry Coach, I missed it." But I'm not going to listen to the same bellyaching 10 trips down the floor later. He's going to get a stop sign and a T if he keeps it up. With regards to players, I don't have a problem with a player disagreeing with a call. But, again, when it comes to the point that they're joking about how bad they think an officials are, I'm not going to tolerate it. And I bet their coach wouldn't either if he could hear it. Do we joke and make comments about how bad a team is when we're standing in the FT lane? Young people need to learn to respect others. In other walks of life, when disrespect is shown, there are consequences. Basketball is no different. [/B][/QUOTE] Tony... I agree with your post and how you would handle these sitiations; however, you or I will never know whether this game was officiated poorly or well or if they were kicking calls throughout. But if the refs were being joked about at "every opportunity" my take is they did not have control of the game. With that conclusion, I offered some advice to help prevent future situations of the same nature. I don't feel I missed the point.
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 01:17pm
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One point that was unknown throughout this thread was that the game in question was a Rec. League for children, 18 and over, in a Military community.
"Wondering" is an extremely motivated 3rd year official. Unfortunately, there is a mismatch in officiating quality. He is also little frusterated in trying to apply the quality officiating, found in most Federation programs, and lessons learned from the 2 camps he's attended this summer, in a "Jungle Ball" environment. Chuck
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 02:16pm
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All the more reason to sack up and take control of the game.
Now I am not saying be a jerk about it, but if this crap is going on you keep wacking until it stops. You cannot "make" them respect you, but if they know they will be penalized for being immature brats maybe they will keep their pie holes shut. If there was a partner during this game; what field was he picking daisies in? I try to let my partners clean up their own garbage, but if I know I am working with a younger official I will only listen to so much before I grab a broom and take care of it for him.
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 05:18pm
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Quote:
I'm also in the military and have done my share of intramural/rec. league ball. Sometimes the only answer is to run 3 or 4 guys before they get the point. Guess what? Next time they have you as an official, they tend to mind their Ps and Qs a little better.
__________________
my favorite food is a whistle 
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Thu Aug 09, 2001, 11:26pm
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players will push it to the limit, that is a given if they know they can get away with it, why not? but, your job as an official, the administration of the game, is you must keep the players,fans, and especially the coaches in line at all times.
an official must have "tough skin" but when the line is crossed, it is your responsbility to throw the T. you don't want the players to create a mockery of your game. you not enorcing the rules only results in you being percieved as though you are not comptent in handling the rules and you can't control your game, this is not a good trait to possess. but, you must make the call, the RIGHT CALL. a wise official once told me that a good ref is out there for the fun of the game and to give back to the kids, what are we giving back if we let them do anything they want, when it doesn't sound as though it is in their best interest. good luck and have fun with it, it is a very rewarding sport, but always remember why you are out there __________________________ Keep your eye on the prize Doug [Edited by Doug on Aug 9th, 2001 at 11:33 PM]
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Fri Aug 10, 2001, 12:45am
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I just wanted to thank you all for your input. As "Just Curious" stated, this was a military rec league. I do realize that I allowed their conduct to get way out of control and I lost a lot of sleep thinking about what I would do - within the rules - if it started to happen again.
Although I had virtually no support from my ref parter (she is part of the player's social group - and offcourt in a corner BSing with a player while I was reporting and trying to get technical foul shots accomplished ) - your inputs will help me greatly in the future. I know I still make officiating mistakes, but most observers would tell you I work as hard as anyone to improve and learn.
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Fri Aug 10, 2001, 07:37am
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As they say, you are showing the first signs of being a ggod official.
When you hurt and worry over blown call or wondering if you could have done something better you are on the right track and have the passion. These are the things that make you learn and want to get back out on the floor ASAP. It is also what make you a good official. When you loose the burn, it is time to hang 'em up.
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