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-   -   Coach perceptions of what we call (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/27510-coach-perceptions-what-we-call.html)

Raymond Fri Jul 21, 2006 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimgolf
Is this a convention for fouls on shots, or are there other plays where the official should wait before whistling a foul?

As explained to me by 2 different ACC officials at 2 separate camps, here are the general guidelines as I comprehended them:
  • Shots taken right around the basket, especially by post players, involving contact on the arms or marginal body contact, have a patient whistle.
  • Jump shots and other shots that are not immediately near the basket, plus crashes, call on contact (if contact warrants a whistle)

ATXCoach Fri Jul 21, 2006 05:25pm

I agree that contact on the ball handlers between the arcs has become too excessive in my neck of the woods. It's open season to bump and reach when the offensive player is dribbling down the sideline.

I do find it strange that some people think too many blocks are beng called. I think it's the opposite. It seems that anytime the defender takes the contact in the chest, regardless of if they are moving or leaning or took the position after the offense player jumped, they get the call.

The calls that got me the most this season and maybe you guys can help me understand, is when my post player is being forced out of the lane by a defender who is all over their back and they give a little chicken wing with their elbow too hold them off - whistle - offensive foul. Not saying it's not a foul on the offense, but was there more of an emphasis to watch the offense closer and not so much the displacement by the defender?

Has high school adopted the "wait and see" foul calling method too now? I for one don't like it.

Camron Rust Fri Jul 21, 2006 06:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I do find it strange that some people think too many blocks are beng called. I think it's the opposite. It seems that anytime the defender takes the contact in the chest, regardless of if they are moving or leaning or took the position after the offense player jumped, they get the call.

Where you may be confused is that there is NO requirement that the player be stationary...they may be moving when contact is made and still draw the charge. This is not new, but surprises a lot of people who learn the "rules" from the wrong places.

Even leaning can be ok if the lean isn't what is creating the contact. If the contact would have been the same or worse withtout the lean, I reward the defender.

As far as getting to the position late...again, the player doesn't have to be still, just in the path before the contact. If they're backpeddling in the path, it is not possible to have a block. If there is contact sufficient for a foul, it can only be a charge.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

The calls that got me the most this season and maybe you guys can help me understand, is when my post player is being forced out of the lane by a defender who is all over their back and they give a little chicken wing with their elbow too hold them off - whistle - offensive foul. Not saying it's not a foul on the offense, but was there more of an emphasis to watch the offense closer and not so much the displacement by the defender?

Well, my guess is that the two players were leaning on each other...usually what I see. Then one of them takes a much more agressive action. It could be chicken wing, a knee in the butt, or any number of actions. Most will allow some amount of leaning on each other but when it escalates, it will draw a foul on whoever ups the ante first.

JRutledge Sat Jul 22, 2006 01:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
I agree that contact on the ball handlers between the arcs has become too excessive in my neck of the woods. It's open season to bump and reach when the offensive player is dribbling down the sideline.

I cannot speak for what takes place directly in your area, but "reaching" is not a foul. Also if a dribbler is going toward the sideline, the question I have to ask is what were they doing there? Defense is allowed to play the game and defend the movement of the dribbler as long as they do so legally. Not every bump is the fault or caused by the defender. You cannot get a square peck in a round hole and a lot of times this is expected by dribblers and their coaches and they want us to bail out foul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
I do find it strange that some people think too many blocks are beng called. I think it's the opposite. It seems that anytime the defender takes the contact in the chest, regardless of if they are moving or leaning or took the position after the offense player jumped, they get the call.

As said before, it is legal for a defender to move to maintain position as long as they have established legal guarding position. Also as a guideline, when a defender has maintained LGP and takes contact fully in the chest, then that is more than likely going to be called a foul on the ball handler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
The calls that got me the most this season and maybe you guys can help me understand, is when my post player is being forced out of the lane by a defender who is all over their back and they give a little chicken wing with their elbow too hold them off - whistle - offensive foul. Not saying it's not a foul on the offense, but was there more of an emphasis to watch the offense closer and not so much the displacement by the defender?

Well I will say that I think officials do not do a good job at calling the first foul. But with that being said, a lot of times both players are doing some illegal things and it is not called. I can tell you I have called many fouls on the offensive player and I have gotten more crap for that. I think we too often give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt when the defender did everything right. Maybe the officials in your game called fouls on the offensive player because they felt your player caused most of the contact. For all you know the officials might have passed on the first contact by your guy, passed on the second contact by the defender, then got your player for the 3rd action. I was told at a camp this summer that if you miss the first foul, miss the second foul and make sure you get the third foul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATXCoach
Has high school adopted the "wait and see" foul calling method too now? I for one don't like it.

Well I do not know what you mean by a "wait and see" method, but if an official is doing their job they are not going to be so quick to call a foul when there clearly is no advantage. For example I am not going to call a hand check when a player clearly gets by the defender and makes an easy play. Or I am not going to call a foul when a shooter clearly was not affected by the contact and could complete the play. Now the more years I have, the more my whistle is much slower than it was at the beginning of my career. Now that might not be a philosophy you do not accept, but I can tell you this is what is wanted by many assignors and higher level officials. In my opinion this is the only way to do things if you want to call the game properly.

Peace

Adam Tue Jul 25, 2006 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimgolf
As I mentioned, I've heard this explained that the official has to see the whole play in order to determine whether the shooter has been disadvantaged. Is this a convention for fouls on shots, or are there other plays where the official should wait before whistling a foul? Is there a simpler way of explaining this to fans and coaches. (Many may feel this is pointless, but when I'm game management I am asked to explain the officiating frequently.)

It's how the rules are written. Contact that doesn't cause some sort of advantage isn't a foul. So, if your shooter is bumped and his shot isn't affected, there's no foul. To me, it doesn't matter if the shot goes in, only if the shot is made more difficult by the contact.

Jimgolf Tue Jul 25, 2006 03:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
It's how the rules are written. Contact that doesn't cause some sort of advantage isn't a foul. So, if your shooter is bumped and his shot isn't affected, there's no foul. To me, it doesn't matter if the shot goes in, only if the shot is made more difficult by the contact.

I agree. The issue is really when an official can judge whether the contact was sufficient to justify a foul call. There are apparently legitimate reasons to wait to see the result before making a call, but I don't think that too many people other than officials are aware of this. As BadNewsRef pointed out, contact near the basket may be difficult to judge without waiting.

Adam Tue Jul 25, 2006 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimgolf
I agree. The issue is really when an official can judge whether the contact was sufficient to justify a foul call. There are apparently legitimate reasons to wait to see the result before making a call, but I don't think that too many people other than officials are aware of this. As BadNewsRef pointed out, contact near the basket may be difficult to judge without waiting.

Yep. And, unfortunately, by the time we blow the whistle, the shot has already missed, and it looks like we waited to see if the shot would go in or not. So the crowd, and the coaches, tend to get the wrong impression. It's just the nature of the beast. On these plays, I rarely see whether the ball goes in; I'm looking for body positioning and the effect from contact; whether the degree of difficulty got raised or not. :)


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