Ever happen?
 

I was looking over POE for a camp I am going to attend next week. In reference to Sporting Behavior, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen a coach get a T for treatment of his own players and for what?

I have heard a coach swear at one of his own JV aged girls before that is why it came to mind. (Actually he got tossed not a longtime after that for mouthing off to official).

Where would you as an official draw the line in this regard?:confused:

I know someone who officiated a D3 JV game in which the coach was T'd up for cursing at and putting his hands on his own player.

I have asked two D1 refs (both with ties to the Midwest) about this scenario or something similar to it. The first one I asked is a 2nd year mid-major D1 official and he asked his supervisor about it and his response was pretty much "Could you imagine giving Bobby Knight a technical for cursing out his own player?". Second guy I asked is a veteran Big Ten official and he literally rolled his eyes and laughed at my question, saying that he would note it in his game report, but that's about it.

I, working strictly at the HS and JuCo levels, would probably ask the coach to calm down. If very audible cursing were involved I think I would be obligated to 'T' for unsporting behavior.

I have seen plenty of coaches go crazy on their own players and I would initially ignore them. But if he is cursing out loud and throwing things around, I would have a nice chat with him.

It is, according to the rules, not acceptable to use inappropriate language to <B>any</B> player. That said, in reality the older the players, the more leeway you give the coach regarding their own players. I would consider the T as carefully as I would giving a T to a team for fan behavior - it should be used very sparingly, and probably only after other things have been tried to correct it.

A long time ago, I was working a 5th and 6th grade girls game in a small-town grade school gym, with probably 10 parents in the stands. The home coach was trying to get one of his kids to trap in the corner, so his player ran over to the offensive player and ended up knocking her off the court. It was not pre-meditated in any way, just a clumsy, 5th grade girl play. I called the foul, and the coach asked for a TO. He then proceded to really lay into this kid, yelling things like, "How could you do that?!? I taught you better than that!!", and many other things at a high volume. It was a very uncomfortable TO, and I wondered if I should T the coach. But, I didn't, because after all, he was just yelling at his own player, right? Since then, I figured out if that exact scenario happens again to me again, it's an easy T at that level, especially with the Fed. emphasis on sportsmanship. At the HS varsity level and above, I would probably ignore it unless there are curse words being thown about at a high enough volume that most people in the gym can hear it. Then I might go over after the TO and remind the coach about his/her responsibilty as a teacher, and since he/she is a representive of the school they should remember the emphisis on sportsmanship.

mopar60,
I have warned a coach that he is "becoming a distraction"; he apologized and kept it down.
mick

At the HS level or below, you issue the technical foul. That is what the NFHS wants and the HS game is an extension of the classroom. The coach has to be a teacher in that environment and conduct himself accordingly.

Asking NCAA officials about this for guidance is useless. They operate in a different environment. NCAA basketball has become a business. The schools use it as a moneymaker, not as a teaching experience and the last thing that they care about is language used by their coaches.

Sadly sportsmanship is fading away quickly at the D1 level and the focus on money is to blame.

The best advice that I could give is to not act like a college official in a HS game, act like an NFHS official. Save conducting yourself as a college official for when you are in an NCAA game.

Maybe where you work, but not everyone would agree that is the only action. I would check with your local assignor for guidance if you have to call this. My personal opinion is to ignore this unless everyone in the gym can hear the coach. Then just have a quick word and move on. Do not penalize the kids because a coach cannot control themselves for a moment with his/her own team.

If someone is going to a college camp, these are the very people that are going to give some guidance. Not everyone is just working HS and depending on the level of this camp, you better listen to the people that have been working at the higher levels. BTW, D1 officiating sets the trend for what happens at other levels of college officiating and HS officiating as well.

Do you really think the editor of the NF Basketball Rulebook is not influenced by college officiating?

I think that is terrible advice. First of all you do not know what kind of camp that mopar60 is going to. Even the one HS camp I am attending this summer has several D1 officials influencing the way officiating goes at the camp and what is taught at that camp. Also this camp is run by the head of basketball officials in the State of Illinois (and he is a former D1 official). Secondly what starts at the college level tends to rolls down hill in many situations. Of course not all things come from the college ranks, but many of the philosophies and practices are being plucked right from the college ranks (no bird-dogging, table side foul switching and team control signal and rules just to name a few). And I can tell you the way I communicate with coaches and players is directly from the college philosophy and what I have learned at college camps. I have never had a single HS assignor give a damn about what I or others do as it relates to a college philosophy when calling a game. This might be also why I and other officials who work college tend to work further and further in the post season with a college officiating background and quicker as compared to the HS only official. Please do not take this as a personal attack, I just think what you are saying is really bad advice and totally inaccurate.

Peace

I thank you all for your input, I have no intentions of ever going past high school level so I believe Nevadaref's advice would pertain to my sitch. I also agree with JRutt because I too believe college ball has little to do with building character and self confidence in student/athletes as opposed to making money, today.

I don't know what you expect to get out of the camp you're going to (learn? move up?) but IMO the best thing you can do is to ask the camp personel their opinion. I bet the answers you get back will look like this:

1. Absolutely unacceptable, I respect an official who has the guts to T this

2. Absolutely unacceptable, I respect officials who are smooth enough to defuse this quietly

3. None of your business.

I'm somewhere between 2 & 3 myself.

I was working a freshman game a couple years ago when Team A is up 25 at halftime. We start the second half and Team B scores the first 12 points. Coach from Team A requests 30 second time-out and just goes on a profanity laced tirade at his players. I wait until the huddle breaks and I let him know that's unacceptable behavior and it will cost him. WHACK! He agreed and we moved forward. The funny thing about it was that a parent thanked me after the game as well.

I'm not saying what you did is wrong or right. But I'm wondering if the goal is to stop this behavior why wait until he's done? Why not go into the huddle & ask him to knock it off, then T him if he gets nasty with you?

Dan, I not saying what you said is right or wrong. But, why try to show up the coach in his or her huddle. I (imo) think Stripes33 took the right approach under the situation.

Why do you need to show up the coach?

Walk over to the huddle, stand behind the coach and ask him quietly to keep it down.

(Read my other post, this is an example of my #2.)

Kind of scary, but this was my first thought as well.

One of us better knock this off pretty quick.

I'll let the NFHS write my response to Rut's comments for me. As I wrote in my first post there is a big difference between the NCAA and NFHS and what is desired from the officials. Rut gave you the way to handle it AT THE NCAA LEVEL. Usually I think that Rut expresses practical advice that helps officials, but in this particular case I have to disagree. Furthermore, since he called my thoughts "really bad advice and totally inaccurate," I'm compelled to demonstrate that for the NFHS level he is completely WRONG. (Of course, he won't acknowledge it!)

Here is the direct quote from the 2004 NFHS Rules Book. I didn't write a single word of this. The NFHS Rules Committee wrote all of it. I'm only highlighting some parts.

"2004-05 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
...
4. Specific unsporting acts. The committee is concerned about the following specific unsporting acts. Coaches, players and officials must pay particular attention to these areas:
...
C. Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.
The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse."

Now would you rather follow what the NFHS says or Rut's personal opinion?

Shouldn't NFHS officials should go out and follow what that NFHS POE says? Checking with your local assignor or handling it the D1 way may get you more games, but you have to admit that you are failing to uphold the civility and citizenship values which are at the core of HS sports. If you are okay with that that is your business. But to use Rut's words, "I think that is terrible advice." I prefer to do what I know is right and I don't need to check with anyone to determine that.

Just shows that not everything which filters down from college and the pros is good for the HS game.

When the NF starts hiring me for games, I will only focus on what the NF wants on this issue to the letter. Until that time, I will apply common sense and practices that work (like was said by Dan). Now if you want to call a T, then do so. You do have rules to back you up.

Here is also the other part of this discussion. Have you ever wondered why the NF never tells you what “inappropriate language” is? It is clear to me that the NF leaves these things open for interpretation or use of some judgment.

You can quote all the rules in the world; it is not dictates philosophy or common sense.

Peace

So I take it you throw out fans for acts of abuse on a regular basis?

Well this whole thread is getting rather sarcastic now, but game administrators generally refers to the A.D.

Officials deal with coaches and players. We might bring a fan to the attention of a sleeping A.D. though.

Z

Yes, Dan, I have no problem having spectators removed.
My most recent two were:
1. Last Saturday a guy yelled, "That's bullsh!t," following my partners call.
2. A student from the home school told a visiting player to "Go back to [visiting home town], you fag."

That's not part of HS sports and I will do something about it; and the NFHS has instructed game officials to do so.

Now at the D1 level, I would leave it totally up to the game administration.

You got the rabbit ears, eh?

Good calls.

Here in Ontario, Basketball Ontario a few years ago had to resort to issuing a province-wide policy of zero tolerance in order to curtail this unacceptable behavoir. I know of some local organizations that did not heed the instructions (remember "When in Rome..."). My local board did and I have to say that those couple years were among the most enjoyable of my career. After a coupla years, it started to go sour again. Nowadays, I spot the crap a mile away and deal with it early.

IMO, my current local board is notorious for being inconsistent with this type of stuff.

Rabbit ears is right.
 

Man, you hear all that? Half the time I cannot hear anything a coach says, let alone what the fans say.

Peace

I've always understood that term to apply to listening in on a private conversation or comments said under one's breath.

For comments that are intended to be public, said loudly and openly, and that are derogatory, I don't believe that that term applies.

There is nothing wrong with my hearing. If someone wants to get my attention, they can. Once they do, I do something about it.
You can call it what you like, but I call it taking care of business.

I never thought of this situation but in AL we tell players and coaches in the pre-game conference that there is a zero tolerance on profanity in the state. Our association president and district commissioner both emphasized it last season and I say it at every game. Since we are supposed to clamp down on players who use profanity (under any situation), I would think the same applies to coaches too. Now, would I? In two years I haven't actually heard a coach curse at a player and, I don't listen for it either. If I hear it I would have to admit that I think it would depend on the circumstance. If it was said low at the end of a TO and I was near the huddle I would probably warn. If it is yelled out loud for all to hear then I think a T is warranted. If you don't call a T and you are being evaluated you may hear about it later. I think this is something I will ask our commissioner.

Here's where we disagree:

I only give someone my attention if *I* want to, not if they want me to. IOW, I leave my rabbit ears in my bag when I take the floor.

I guess we can just leave it at that.

Guess I work in too many empty gyms, because I have heard fans curse. And when I do, I address it every time. Now, how I address it depends on the atmosphere, the hostily of the crowd, and the pace of the game.

My most common approach (remember I'm working in HS gyms or small JuCo venues, not major college arenas) is just to ask the spectator to please watch his/her language. If the crowd is hostile or the pace of the game doesn't allow for a quick word to the fans, then on an extended dead ball I will contact game admin and inform them that someone in the stands is using inappropriate language. Then it is up to game admin how the situation is handled.

If a coach yells out a curse word at a player after a turnover or a bad play and I happen to be near the coach when he/she does so, I will just say "Hey coach, could you watch your language please?"

I've never had a situation where I've had to ask for a fan to be removed or had to 'T' up a coach for cursing at his players.

I have a couple of questions/comments.

What is bad language anymore? More and more words are becoming acceptable.

Why would it be showing a coach up to get him to act according to the rules? If a coach is drawing attention to himself/herself and doing something that shouldn't be a part of the game, we should probably do something. Maybe not a T, but something.

I think I hear everything and do little or nothing about most of it. On a lighter note, I like to hear comments directed at me that are funny. I don't look or do anything, just get an internal laugh.

Same questions I asked above.

I think many of us are saying you should go to the coach and say something, but not just give a T without trying to stop the action first. At least that is what I am going to do despite how anal Nevadaref wants to be about it.

I agree most of the comments are funny. You got to laugh at most of them no matter how vulgar.

Peace

Well the NFHS POE states "officials must pay particular attention" to "inappropriate language," which is under the classification of "unsporting acts."

Now what is the penalty for an unsporting act in NFHS play? Hmmmmm....is it a verbal warning or a technical foul? I'm sure it's listed in Rule 10.

Of course, I am well aware that you and Rut will do as you wish, and without someone from the NFHS, your state office, or your association there who desires otherwise and has the power to effect what you do, it won't make any difference.

Of course, neither will you and that is sad as I believe that making a difference in the lives of young people is a part of being an NFHS game official. Civility and citizenship is what the NFHS desires.

Oh brother
 

:rolleyes:

You still have never answered the question I asked. What is inappropriate language in the first place? There are some people that are a lot older than me that think it is inappropriate to use curse words in the presents of a female, but they must never spend time with many women in my generation and hear them talk. :rolleyes: So what you might consider inappropriate might be considered minor in another person's mind or jurisdiction.

Actually Nevada, I have never had anyone from the IHSA define what is "inappropriate" or suggest what would at least not be considered "inappropriate." I can tell you when you work games in the suburbs, rural areas and city areas, what is considered inappropriate is going to very different.

Please do not speak for me. You and I likely do not share the same religious values, political values or social expectations, so save the "save the children" BS. My job is to officiate a game, not save all young people from all things that I do not agree with. Secondly, where I live kids have a lot more problems than who used a bad word. You know, things like poverty, drug uses and dealers throughout their community and not being able to afford and education and the prospect of getting shot. I think those are bigger issues than whether a coach that actually might help them get out of those situations uses a curse word in a huddle or what you consider inappropriate.

Peace

Hey, Nevada, you can spin this any way you like. Fact remains (as I said) that I only give someone my attention if *I* want to, not if they want me to or if YOU want me to. IOW, I leave my rabbit ears in my bag when I take the floor. But we've already determined that's the difference between us, and I was hoping we could have just moved on from there.

But apparently you're on a mission to clean up the language in every gym on the planet. Far be it from me to stand in your way, just don't expect me to sign up for your little milita.

Just as I don't expect you to pass moral judgement on me, or the impact I might or might not have on the life of anyone.

Clear enough now? Great.

Maybe you and I are about as far apart politically as any 2 on this board, but apparently we have more in common than either of us like to admit.

I agree 100% with what you've written here and it sums up my view completely.

Nevada, all behavioral technical fouls are subjective. Every official has a different level of tolerance when it comes to swearing, arguing, misuse of coaching box, etc. It certainly would be nice if everybody called it the same way, but that just ain't gonna happen. If you can get everybody in a particular crew calling behavior consistently at both ends of the court, then you're ahead of the game. Everybody(players, coaches) knows what to expect then and there shouldn't be any problems. The result is what counts, not the method. As long as the game is properly controlled and played in a half-azz sporting fashion, who cares what means was used to attain that end?

We agree on a lot of things. Many of us do if you really think about it. Maybe that is why some of have been here for such a long time. ;)

Peace

First, we are not discussing a situation in which you deem that the language is not inappropriate. We are discussing how to handle a coach, player, or fan at an NFHS game who does use inappropriate language.
You have stated that you would handle this in a manner which is contrary to the NFHS POE. That is what I have taken issue with. Why do you do that? Is that the path of least resistance? Are you afraid of the wrath of a coach or a local assignor? Why won't you do what the NFHS tells you to WHEN YOU DEEM THE LANGUAGE TO BE INAPPROPRIATE?


Do you need someone from the IHSA or the NFHS to define it for you? Aren't you confident in your own judgment of what is above the threshold?
I doubt that someone from the IHSA has defined what "disadvantage" means. How do you ever call a foul during a game? Do you just run up and down the court for 32 minutes and never blow the whistle because no one from the IHSA has given you a definition of what contact constitutes a "disadvantage." No you just use your judgment. Do the same with the language.

I never attempted to "speak" for you. That is why I specifically wrote "I believe that ..." in the passage you quote. That cannot be clearer. I am speaking what I believe.
What our particular religions, politics, or social experiences are don't matter one bit when it comes to how the NFHS wants us to deal with inappropriate language. While it likely will make a difference in what we judge as inappropriate, our individuality should have no effect upon what we do once we deem that someone has used that kind of language. That is why the NFHS has a national governance. The rules are supposed to be the same in every state in the country. The mechanics are supposed to be the same. The game is supposed to be the same. Now why won't you do what the NATIONAL FEDERATION says to do?

Lastly, it is obvious that you have lost sight of the why behind HS sports. Why does our society have HS athletics? It is to teach our young people lessons that they will need in life. The games are just that: games. They are learning experiences to help them mature and become good citizens.
Sadly you have forgotten that. This is not college or the pros. You have more of a job to do than to "officiate a game."

Kids all over the world face bigger problems than using or hearing bad words. Do you think that drugs, poverty, danger, and race issues are particular to your local area? That's laughable. Yes, certain areas have more or less problems than others and the degree varies too. But what does this have to do with how one conducts himself on a HS basketball court? Do these other problems excuse poor court behavior? Do they permit the use of profanity? Can only poor kids curse? Should we slacken the civility that one person should show to another because one of those persons has obstacles to overcome? Sending that message certainly doesn't help the problems we have in our society.
Why is it only a coach who can help these kids? Do you believe that the officials are not part of the teaching environment of HS sports?
And fyi I lived, worked, and officiated in Washington, D.C. for some time and I'm sure that those kids had all of the same problems that the ones in Chicago have. Those kids also need to grow up and become productive members of our society. If that process can be helped by something learned in HS sports, that is a good thing.

It's not my mission, Dan. It's the NFHS's. You can either be a part of it and do what they ask you to or not.

I don't understand why one would chose not to. What is the positive that comes from that?

I wasn't aware you're authorized to speak for the NFHS and interpret their goals & mission for the rest of us, or to question our motives and actions relative to the NFHS mission. Congratulations on being named to this lofty position.

Does this mean you won't be typing "WTF" on this forum anymore?

Well it does matter what is considered inappropriate. You and I cannot even agree how to handle this kind of situation. So what makes you think we are going to agree on what is inappropriate? In another thread we have people that cannot even agree what the connotations of what happens when someone is called a "bigot.”

Once again you miss the point being made to you. The bottom line is the NF left this part purposely "vague." They did this so officials could use some judgment and I am sure they realize no one is going to just T everyone that does this. Also I am not that concerned with what the coaches say and in many cases I am talking to my partners. I have no idea what they are saying or care for that matter.

I have had many conversations over the years with people on this site and half the time we cannot agree on what language means and its context. So I find it funny that you have a stick stuck up your behind about this issue when the word "inappropriate" is subject to a lot of different factors. I have also learned that as an official, you have to know how to use rules the right way. My first job is to call the game. My job is not to manage the huddle. My job is not to tell all the coaches their timeout situation. My job is not to be right next to the huddle for the possibility that someone might say something that anyone would deem inappropriate. Now if I hear something that "I" feel is inappropriate, then I do what I need to do to let the coach know they need to knock it off. The NF wants the behavior to stop; the NF did not say the only reaction is a T. Remember the NF talks about if the action is considered "minor" you can give a warning.

Nevadaref, you come from a state that legalizes prostitution and you want to talk to me about morals and missions of the NF? I also think you do not know much about education either. I can tell you that a teacher in the Chicago Public School System has a different set of issues to deal with than someone that lives in Naperville, IL. So if someone curses in a certain urban and inner-city school, that is going to be viewed differently than a kid that lives in a very Christian and conservative area that I currently live in like Wheaton, IL.

It is also clear to me that you know little about officiating if you really think our mission is to right all the wrongs of society. We cannot even agree in this country why we went to war, now we are suppose have the same standards regardless of where you live and what your background is?

If you want to help kids give back time to these communities that need it. You are not going to save the world by T'ing everyone that uses language you do not like. Sorry, but kids in many communities need a lot more than language police to tell them what to say or to tell their coach or fans how to talk to them.

Also this conversation is getting silly. If you do not agree with my position on this, either get over it or complain to the appropriate authorities. For the record I cannot think of a time where I heard everything a coach says or does in a huddle. I usually am working a game where a lot of people are present at the games and usually hearing a coach over that is not an easy thing to do. We are not going to agree on what is moral or the purpose as an official. My job is to call the game and use common sense while doing it. Common sense is not to go around calling a T every time someone "might" technically violate a rule.

Peace

Peace