Team A is clearly blowing out B - the final score was 75 to 25, with most of B's points scored in the final quarter when A's center and forwards remained at their own basket and only sending the guards down for defense.

Team B was commiting most of the fouls and I went easy on them once they were about 25 points behind. These weren't hard fouls, mostly just the normal, inadvertant contact under the basket. Furthermore, I didn't feel I should whistle team A for what I wasn't calling on team B.

What guidelines do experienced officials use in such situations? Call all fouls normally which would allow the obviously superior team to increase their lead and extend the duration of the massacre? Go harder on the superior team? Other???

I'm careful about fouls. If these are not called, the game can get out of hand and <u>UGLY</u>! I've seen such from the stands. However, I will let the little ones go on the losers, and be a little more strict on the theam that's ahead, especially if generated by stupid play.

As for violations, I make very liberal changes there. This is especially true for young kids. I had such a game with 5th-grade girls once. The score was something like 25-3 late in the game. The "3" rebounded a missed shot and walked OOB for the throw in. I rushed over and said something like "No no, just go down the court" as I shewed them like a flock of birds or something. The girls just obeyed and thought nothing of it. The parents praised me for having a good perspective on the game. BTW, with a 18-3 or so half-time score you can guess who in-bounded the ball for Q3. It took several comments, however, to get the arrow changed during half-time so that it would match. They finally got the picture (and agreed). The team that was behind committed no violations!

Wondering,
I don't care what the score is.
I do not care what the score may become.
I do not play favorites.
I do not call inadvertant contact unless it affects the play, or is hard.

But then, we have a running clock at 40 points to 30 points, so that alleviates some of my pain.
Don't forget that, on those blowouts, the subs are often playing, and they also deserve a proper game as do their fans. ;)
mick

Once again, I agree with Mick.

Me Three!
 

Mick is aligned with my philosophy.

Except we do not have a "mercy rule", unless it is summer league or "pee-wee" tourneys.
:)

It is very difficult, especially when doing games involving younger kids, to call a game properly when it is a blowout. Human nature may induce us to slack off let a lot of stuff go, especially by the losing team.

While I might let a borderline violation go when it really doesn't give an advantage (I might do this anyway regardless of the spread), there are three points strongly in favor of calling the game in a normal manner.

1. the kids who are on the floor at the time need to learn what they can and cannot do in a game situation. It is not our job to allow them to develop bad habits. If we do, they will be confused (and rightly so) when they are in a closer game and the same stuff we let go now gets called.

2. as stated in other posts, letting a lot of stuff go, especially in this situation where the team getting clobbered can easily get frustrated, is just the first step toward a player getting hurt on a hard foul.

3. it is counterproductive to your mechanic and game skills. It is a backward step toward sloppy mechanics and takes the edge off your progress toward being consistent in your calls.

My thoughts, during extreme blowouts, I don't like to pro-long the game. And to comment on the fact that the players don't need to learn bad habits. They know exactly what is going on, and if they take advantage of it then there should be consequences, but give the kids more credit than you are.

Wondering --

It's hard to feel good about this, no matter how you handle it. Here's what I've done so that I feel I'm being consistent, fair and "equal". I have developed a sort of extreme sense of advantage/disadvantage. Think about it this way. The team that ends up 50 points ahead (and you often know ahead of time who it will be) has all the advantages. You cannot take away any of the legal advantages -- that destroys the nature of The Game. I mean, the whole point is to have legal advantages and to use them. But you can always take away illegal advantages. So let's call the better team, Team A. If A1 has the ball and is able to get past B1 by clever foot work and good ball handling, there's no call. But if she has her hand on the side of the ball just barely long enough to "steer" the ball around the defender, TWEET!, "Carry!" B1 tries the same thing, but A1 has better position and B1 can't get past, no-call. I'm talking about the borderline calls here, nothing obvious. Same thing with contact. If a point guard isn't very good, and is easily bumped out of her path, it's A's responsibility to back off a little, and I'll call it if they don't. Same point-guard B1 now defending A1 with the ball, a minor bump may not confer a disadvantage, so I don't call it. You still have to call all the obvious stuff on either team.

Also, I've felt that overall, calling the game more strictly is better for the underdog team that calling it loosely. It may seem backwards, but I've done a lot of really lousy games and my observation is that, in general, the far less skilled team will rise a little to a strict line, and the advantaged team will back off a little to avoid the silly-little-fouls, and the lower level team will do better than they otherwise would have.

I know that there are people that will disagree with this, but it works for me, and I've even had a couple of coaches appreciate it. It's easy to explain -- "Coach, yes, they are bumping you a little, but they're not gaining advantage by it, Do you want me to take away those easy points?" Or, "Do you want to shoot foul shots all night?"

[Edited by rainmaker on Aug 2nd, 2001 at 02:47 PM]

When the loser gets goofy
 

I had a blow out the other day, I'm not sure of the ages, maybe 7th-8th, some frosh level. (I guess I should say two blow outs). First game: red team is down and the coach already had a T from early in the first half, which he must have known the seatbelt rule cuz he sat right away. So in the second half the glue wore off and about 5 minutes into the half I kindly told him, "coach, I need you to sit down". He yapped back at me "YOU need to call your game". Instead of telling him that his-butt-in-the-seat IS my game, I just used the smile & nod procedure as he yapped at me for a few more seconds (walking onto the court), so my right fingertips met my left palm. and I asked the coach to leave....well he took his whole team with him. That worked out ok cuz we were a half hour behind and this set us perfectly back on time.
Next day: we have the same red team, coach never said a word, 5 min left to go and (the red team being down by much) just goes goofy and starts doin' all kinds of fancy stuff that doesn't always work. When they did score off their Harlem Globetrotter plays, their bench would go wild. Pretty soon their bench was at the table, ready to sub, but they could not control themselves, #0 jumps onto the court and then gets the OOPs look and dashes back to the table. I didn't catch it until he was sliding back to the table. I knew he didn't mean to come in, he was only jumping to celebrate their big loss. I just shook my head and told them no-no.The next time the team scored a couple seconds later he and a team mate did it again, This time I blew my whistle, and as I gave them a loud verbal warning for not entering the court, all five of the subs scurried on to the court and were joking and cheering out of goofyness. (I gave them a T). As the other team shoots the free thorws, the whole red team is running a couple of half-court sprints in the back court. BTW red team also called a full time out. Here's the rule check: was I right in calling the T on the subs a "bench technical" for running on the court even though it was a specific # (#0, who later was issued a T for unsportsmanlike gestures to my partners back).? See, if the sub technical is not considered bench, then #0 would have been disqualified later on... I had to think about that one when he got the T later on.

When did a hand on the side of the ball become palming?

Handling a blowout is a major part of officiating. Assignors want to know how you handle it. Chances are, they will give you one as your first varsity game. I know that it is common to give an official the 16 vs 1 seed for their first NCAA playoff game. So don't blow it when you have it.

My goals in a blowout is:
1) Don't let anything stupid happen. I.E. star gets injured because of a foul that was never called.
2) Keep the clock running.
3) Call what needs to be called. If you can't ignor it then don't.
4) The benefit of the doubt goes to the losing team. Not in a cheating way but if two kids lundge for the ball and it goes out of bounds, the losing team gets the ball.

Worst blowout I called was my first playoff game. Junior High tourny seeds 15 vs 2. Winning score was made in the first minute. 10-0 at that point. Final score 78-9.

Not so fast Tim!!!
 

I have to go back to what Mick said. I think we do the game a disservice when we do not do these things. Who cares if the clock is running or not. Believe it or not, you do not choose whether it does or not, the players do. If they cannot keep the ball inbounds, the clock will not run. But do not drastically change your foul calls or your violation calls, just because you have a blow out. Coaches will respect you more if you call the same game. When you change things, it confirms what they already think about us. That we are playing favorites or they are getting screwed. Finish the game yes. Do what you can to keep the game moving, but do not change calls or give the benefit of the doubt to anyone. When that 40 point lead because a 15 point lead and you are a few 3 pointers away from making it is a single digit lead, you do not want them to blame you. They will anyway, but do not give them ammo.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl
[B]When it became "steering"

Quote:

Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl Quote: Originally posted by rainmaker But if she has her hand on the side of the ball just barely long enough to "steer" the ball around the defender, TWEET!, "Carry!" When did a hand on the side of the ball become palming? When it became "steering"

Can you point out for me where the rule (or case book) defines steering? Or tell me what steering is? How do you change the direction of the ball without steering it?

Hey Gary, I think you know pretty much what she's talking
about, we've all seen it and a lot of it was covered
as an NF POE last year. Gripping the ball on the top or
side, either with the hand (big boys) or by holding
it between the hand & forearm (littler guys) during a
dribble is to be considered a dribbling violation. Most
often accompanied by the up-on-your-toes-suspended-
animation-fake-move that is so popular these days, which
is where the "steering" comes in. You can actually buy
videotapes that teach this move.

I've gotta go with Mick too. It's not an official's job to determine what else to do during a "blowout". The losing team always has the option to "call it quits" and stop the game. By letting some violations "go"; while calling others, is treading on thin ice from both a philosophical and safety standpoint. While human nature wants us to go with the underdog . . . as objective officials, that's not our business. Players need to learn how to lose. It's more important they learn what the rules of the game are.

It's not your fault that one team is getting beaten by a wide margin. It could be your fault if one person is injured because you let a foul slide by; or frustration mounts because you don't call a violation that you know occurred.

I know that a hand on the side of the ball is legal and that gripping the ball, pinning it to your body or forearm is not. I don't know what action constitutes steering (it can not be what was stated in the orginal post which was having the hand on the side of the ball), which is what I wanted to find out.

Re: Not so fast Tim!!!
 

J. I think we are on the same page but not speaking the same language. The exception might be in the area of favortism. I want to help the losing team where I can but at the same time, I don't want to give them anything. I have gone overboard in the past and almost got burned by a comeback. But you also don't want to judge too quickly that this is going to be a blowout. I worked one game that both teams had double digit leads and the game finished with a 2 point difference. Every time I thought we would have a blowout we got a good game. I have had assignor after assignor tell me we need to help the losing team.

On the subject of keeping the clock going. I understand that is not always posible. That is why I qualified it as a goal. But when I can keep it going I will. Not calling the travel or the carry. And getting the ball back in play quickly after a whistle. I don't want to prolong a 50 point blowout. I especially don't want to do that when it is a JV game and the fans are bored and want to see the varsity. I don't ignor solid fouls but I do judge a lot more plays as incidental contact. Especially when the team ahead has stronger players and can play through the contact. I don't want to be passing out a lot of "and ones" to them. I hope you can agree.

Steering
 

If steering was illegal, then the "around the back dribble" would be too.

What I'm calling "steering" is a carry in the sense that the hand does not hit, throw or bat the ball down, but sort of guides it along with the amount of contact being too long to be legal. A lot of this is borderline and should be let go, and I do let it go. But when it helps the dribbler get past a defender in legal guarding position, I call it. Although it's more difficult to "steer" than to carry with the hand under the ball, it still happens. The most obvious move that utilizes "steering" is the spin move where the ball moves around the body, propelled by a hand on the side. Even if the hand never slides down to that certain angle under the ball, it's still a carry. This "steering" move can be used in less obvious ways, as described above.

Adding Insult to Injury
 

Shifting gears a little.... Or putting a spin on the topic.... There have been games where the winning coach refuses to pull off a full court press... even with a 20, 30, 40 point lead.... How do you handle this sitch... I'm sure some of you have tried talking with those coaches... Any success stories out there?
jc

How you handle a press during a blowout can be controversial. First, determine that it is a blowout. Then know who is out there. This could be the second stringers just trying to learn how to do a press. Now if the score is 50 to 6 in the fourth period and the first team is out there pressing, then I know I have a problem of sportsmanship by the winning coach. I have gone to the point of determining that any attempt at a steal is a foul. I don't recommend it on a consistent bases. Only on the extream case you see above. Most coaches know that once they get a 20 point lead they can drop back. I'd just be a little more agressive in finding a foul.

Re: Adding Insult to Injury
 

jc,
Success story? Sure.
Get in.
Get done.
Get out.
Workin' with a bad coach ain't much different than workin' with a jerk partner.
mick

Mick, That May Be But....
 

I can't say that I have had much success with such senarios.... One memorable moment came when Team A was ahead by some 40 points and still in the first half.
I stopped the game, and as I approached A's bench,I asked A's coach to come out onto the floor, out of earshot of his bench, players, and fans and said politely.. "Coach, I know it's none of my business but with the lead you have, don't you think you could pull your press off?" The coach said, "Your right ref.... It's none of your business." So I used Tim's approach.
In my profession, I deal with people from 13 to 70+, the rich, the poor, those that think they're God's gift to the world, and those trying to find their way up from the bottom of barrels. Communication is the key... and ya need a different key for everyone. I just don't have all the keys yet. But I'm still looking! :)
Chuck

Re: Mick, That May Be But....
 

Chuck,
Your coach's response, I would guess, is very common.
If I have to deal with ignorance, I dispose of it as quickly as possible, or ignore it.
I am not gonna change a coach's attitude with a brief coaching clinic to him any more than he is gonna change mine with his brief reffing clinic to me. Why even try?
mick


[Edited by mick on Aug 5th, 2001 at 08:01 AM]

2000-2001 NFHS POE

Palming: ...Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

Just because the palm is on the side of the ball, that doesn't meant the dribble is legal.

Nice job, Juules.

Guess what hotshot! In many cases, it is. It's just that most officials are too chickensh*t to call it.

Know what else? Most spin moves are traveling.

That was your mistake, Chuck. Don't ask him anything. Simply whistle two or three fouls on his team while they're pressing. He'll get the message quickly enough. I know some will object to that but there's just no sense in humiliating a less talented team. I don't concern myself with this too much until late 3rd or early 4th quarter. Most coaches are smart enough to pull the press off by then anyway.

4-15-1 also includes the word "push" in addition to bat and strikes. The only time the "amount of contact is too long to be legal" is when the ball comes to rest in one or both hands.

[Quote]
Although it's more difficult to "steer" than to carry with the hand under the ball, it still happens. The most obvious move that utilizes "steering" is the spin move where the ball moves around the body, propelled by a hand on the side. [Quote}

Acutally it's not more difficult and it happens all the time. You "steer" the ball going behind the back, between the legs, when crossing over, and even when dribbling straight forward. Nothing illegal about any of this.

Nonsense! Unless the dribbler palms (grabs it with one hand) or turns the hand past vertical, the ball can not come to rest in the hand. If so, then what force is counteracting the force of gravity?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Brendemuehl

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker What I'm calling "steering" is a carry in the sense that the hand does not hit, throw or bat the ball down, but sort of guides it along with the amount of contact being too long to be legal.

4-15-1 also includes the word "push" in addition to bat and strikes. The only time the "amount of contact is too long to be legal" is when the ball comes to rest in one or both hands.

Quote:

Although it's more difficult to "steer" than to carry with the hand under the ball, it still happens. The most obvious move that utilizes "steering" is the spin move where the ball moves around the body, propelled by a hand on the side. [Quote} Acutally it's not more difficult and it happens all the time. You "steer" the ball going behind the back, between the legs, when crossing over, and even when dribbling straight forward. Nothing illegal about any of this. Quote: Even if the hand never slides down to that certain angle under the ball, it's still a carry. Nonsense! Unless the dribbler palms (grabs it with one hand) or turns the hand past vertical, the ball can not come to rest in the hand. If so, then what force is counteracting the force of gravity?

What I'm reading in this exchange is that you both seem to
saying the same thing, only she's not saying it with your
words (or voice), Gary.

Talk about nonsense...
 

You sound like a coach. Did you not read anything in the POE from last year? Please read the bold face print below. It plainly states that the hand does not have to come under the ball for it to be palmed.

2000-2001 NF POE
Palming
Offensive players "palming" the ball continue to gain a tremendous advantage over defensive player(s). Emphasis is not only to be given to the dribbler's hand position, but also the activity of the ball while the dribble is occurring. <b>"Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor.</b> The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest" (4-15-4 b). Where we are seeing a definite advantage to the offensive player is on the hesitation "move" to beat a defender (toward the basket or just to go by them). In many of these instances, the ball is "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. A violation must be called by the official, as there is no way to legally defend against this move.

Yes, I read the POE also. And I note that it refers to the the ball "coming to rest" in the dribbler's hand. It did not say "when the player steers the ball" nor did it refer to the length of time that a player's hand is in contact with the ball. Although I do agree that the longer the hand is in contact with the ball , the more likely it is that the ball came to rest. I put the terms "steering" and "the hand was in contact with the ball too long" into the same category as "over the back" A dribble is illegal because the ball came to rest in the hand, not because it was steered.

Re: Talk about nonsense...
 

Right. As the POE states: "...The key to officiating this play consistently and correctly is to determine if the ball has "come to rest..." You don't determine it by an ill-defined term called "steering".

But that doesn't address your comments. You said that the ball must be grabbed or the hand must go past vertical for the ball to be palmed. That simply isn't true.

Steering is just a termed that Juulie used. What's the big deal? My interpretation is that she's probably making the right call.

How does a ball come to rest in a hand? You have the force of gravity pushing the ball to the floor. If the ball is to come to rest in the hand, then you must grab the ball or have some part the the hand applying an upward force. If the ball comes to rest in the hand during a hesistation move, then I maintain that the hand must have grabbed the ball or gome past vertical and applied an upward force.

Quote:

Steering is just a termed that Juulie used. What's the big deal? My interpretation is that she's probably making the right call.

Then I can assume you don't have a problem with "Over the Back"?

PALMING
 

Rule 4; Sec 15; Art 4b states:"Theh dribble ends when: The dribbler palms/carries the ball........etc.
I have not seen the term "palm" used here yet, I believe that palming DOES defy gravity. I have a small hand and since I can palm a ball off the dribble then I would assume that most other players can too. (palming meaning keeping the palm of the hand directly facing the floor but gripping the ball so that it "sticks" to the hand.

Then I can assume you don't have a problem with "Over the Back"? [/QUOTE]

Never heard a fan, player, or coach yell, "He's steering the ball!"

It's simply the term that Juulie chose to use to describe it.

Re: PALMING
 

What are you talking about? :confused:

Back to blowouts....
 

I had a 14 AAU game one time that was developing into a blowout. As we broke for half-time I spoke to the coach that was ahead. I suggested that frustrations were mounting on the other team and maybe they shouldn't press every time. After the half-time he told me he spoke with the opposing coach and the opposing coach wanted the opportunity to work on breaking the press. (He was within hearing range.) I said that was fine, as long as player frustrations didn't grow to the point that someone might get hurt. I emphasized that I inteded to deal with play that pushed those frustrations too high. Both coaches agreed and understood. OK, I win one. (Don't ask for my score! ;))

I've also been told that there are no blowouts until the 4th quarter. This avoids the comebacks others mentioned. I tend to agree, but there are exceptions. My 5th grade girls game was 18-3 at half-time only because:

<ul><li>the team with 18 was making 5 or so passes before shooting and
<li>making no effort for offensive rebounds.
<li>They were also keeping their defense inside the 3-point arc.
<li>The skilled players were getting very little playing time, and only one at a time.
<li>The team behind did not know how to dribble nor shoot.
</ul>
We were in no danger of a comeback. <b>We ignored no fouls.</b> We ignored some violations, but it was not an issue of teaching these girls that something else was legal. Our goal was to hope the losing team managed to get to mid-court without losing the ball on their own. No one was showing any signs of frustration, and that aspect of game management is valuable.

I suspect the game someone had that ended 78-9 (or whatever) was obviously a blowout by the 3rd quarter.

Re: Re: PALMING
 

Someone had said something about not being able to carry or steer without putting the hand under or mostly on the side of the ball. I forget who it was but they were talking about gravity. What I was trying to say is that just because the hand is totally on TOP of the ball does not mean that it is not possible to carry the ball. Like I said, if you can palm the ball off the dribble, you can gain an advantage by palming the ball, causing a pause in the dribble.

Re: Re: Re: PALMING
 

You are correct. Just because the hand doesn't go past vertical doe not mean that the ball isn't being carried or palmed.

Re: Back to blowouts....
 

With respect to all this blowout talk, why can't we all just
ignore the score? We're not out there to make sure each
game is competetive. Our only concern in these games should
be to make sure the players continue to focus on the game
(no cheap shots, taunting, etc) and to enforce any local
mercy rules (no press, etc). We shouldn't make up our own
set of mercy rules and we should almost never (some wise
man recently said to never say never) tell a coach how to
play his team.

Handling the Blowout.101
 

(1) Pregame it! and be prepared for it...understand the emotions involved with a blowout.

(2) Never lose control of the game...look for the emotions of the players/coaches and keep your ears open. Diffuse even the smallest confrontation immediately and sternly.

(3) Try to improve the flow of the game...keep dead ball situations to a minimum by using good game management and awareness. Hustle "double time" to get the ball back in play. (Limiting dead ball time will decrease the likliehood of a flare up.)

(4) Any adjustments to your crew's officiating style should come as a result of game control...not because one team is weaker/stronger.

(5) Look good...hustle and keep your mechanics sharp. You never know who is watching.

(6) Steer clear of both coaches (unless absolutely necessary)...the losing coach is likely to be emotional and therefore more apt to explode. The winning coach shouldn't have much to say anyway and if he/she is running up the score is probably an ***hole and who likes to talk to an ***hole? ;)

Regarding "Steering": If you want to see what I am talking about, watch the movie "Love and Basketball." In the scene called, "Second Quarter" there is a clip where the male lead (can't remember his name) is bieng shown how good he is. He slides the ball sideways past the defender, while taking about four steps. This is the definitive play that I call steering. Now, I know the steps are NOT illegal. I only put that part of the sentence in, so you can know which scene I'm talking about. I've heard this called a "Hesitation Move," but I think of "steering" as a sub-category of "Hesitation".

Regarding a press during the blowout, I did say once to a coach, "Some coaches see a press with a 40 point lead as a sign of insecurity and over-compensation..." I said it as the play was moving up the floor and I didn't stop to get a response. Thinking back, it sounds kind of like a bad idea, but it worked...