NBA Game 5- <i>Redux</i>
 

Just to have a little fun and see how many fanboys pop out of the woodwork, I'll post this interview with Mike Mathis, a retired NBA official who worked quite a few Finals. Enjoy.....

http://www.getsportsinfo.com/lance/mikemathis.mp3

Fanboys should love that one. According to Mathis, his fellow officials, old partners and used-to-be-friends(probably) royally screwed up both the timeout and Nowitzki's foul. He also notes that, generally, the officials now in the NBA are all terrible- except for him, of course.

Before all the Mav's fanboys get too indignant though, you should know that Mathis has got his own axe to grind with the NBA front office. He thought that they screwed him by not backing him up when he got convicted for income tax evasion. He served a year's suspension before being reinstated, then he had to retire a coupla years later under a "disability retirement", supposedly because of his knees. Personally, I think that you can just label him under "disgruntled ex-official" and forget about him.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/200...ef_mathis.html

Have at it, fanboys......:D

How lame that an official who made it all the way to the top now calls the NBA hiring practices "a good old boy network." It seems that every disgruntled official likes to pull out that tired excuse.

Z

Good article, Dan. The sad part is that if Miami lose the next 2 games, and if the games are close, you'll be reading stories in the same paper about how the officials screwed the Heat. You can take that to the bank.

To me the interesting thing is that every year the NBA officials become the center of all sorts of consiracy theories. The real consipracy is the NBA office encourages this publicity to keep the playoffs in the news. If they didn't want it it would stop.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I have a feeling there will be a small transfer of wealth between Mark Cuban and the NBA's offices for his comment to David Stern, "Your league is rigged!".

His son also works for the Mavericks
 

He was on the radio this morning in Dallas.

I did not listen to the entire interview, but I did find his comments about the time out interesting. I agreed with what he said. It would seem that when the 3 officials met that the time out would have been given following the second FT because the T would have said something along the lines of "they want the time out after the 2nd FT." However it really shouldn't have gotten that far.

It would have been better game management (I would have tried very hard) not to recognize the time out by JHoward because if I was DeRosa, and had all the experience that goes with it, I know that it is very likely that they want the TO after the 2nd FT. By the way, Howard was roughly 10 feet away, not looking at DeRosa, and the TO signal looked as if he was trying to confirm with Coach in the clips that I saw. Also, it would have been easy to just ask, "do you want it now, or after the FT?"

Wow :( If I ever say that stuff publicly, you all have permission to hang me by my lanyard. No class at all. Unbelievable.

To me it looks like Howard started heading towards the bench after signalling the 2nd time. I haven't heard or read any interviews from Josh Howard but the look on his face afterwards seemed to be of the "I f****d that up" variety.

You agree with what he said, even though <b>neither</b> of you has <b>ever</b> talked to the officials involved in the play about the play, and <b>neither</b> of you were privy to the conversations out on the floor either?

Hmmmmmmm.....interesting......

Two of a kind, I guess. Crucify the officials without hearing their side.

EXACTLY! I've said this over and over again. You see Howard's head turn toward DeRosa, his hands come together in front of him and he starts to walk towards the Mavs bench. DeRosa then whistles the TO. Now why is he walking toward his bench away from the FT lane if he didn't request TO?

Then he did indeed have the stupid "I ****ed up look" on his face.

$250K- just announced.

Doesn't that put him at almost $1.5 million in fines to the NBA?

Maybe the money doesn't mean as much to him, but even I would learn after the first coupla' hundred thou.

Just shy of $1.5 mil, I think. Season ain't over yet though....if they lose another close game, watch out again. He's creeping up on Charles Barkley, I think, for the record. :) Of course Charles was hit mainly for throwing people through bar windows and spitting on fans. I remember reading in one of Barkley's books once that he gave up caring about fines when he found out that they were tax deductible.

Cuban supposedly matches each fine he receives with a charitable donation also- so you're looking at 3 mil or so to date.

Oh! He matches the fines with a donation to charity! Why didn't you say so!

I guess that must add some class to his classlessness. <font size =-2>Yoohoo..Mr. Grammar Guy...</font size>

The last two alone amount to $450,000.

All NBA fines go toward charities already from what I understand.

Peace

Well, now that you mention it, I think I knew that. It makes sense; this way there's no chance an owner or player can claim the league is imposing the fine because they're a little short on cash this week.

Can you imagine the must-see TV if Dallas does happen to come back and win the series, and David Stern and Mark Cuban are standing next to each other on the podium for the trophy presentation?

Anyone notice that Bennett Salvatore tried to direct the players back onto the floor initially after De Rosa blew the whistle for the timeout? He was trying to save the Mavs the TO for AFTER the 2nd FT....De Rosa and Salvatore huddled and De Rosa was adamant about granting the TO - so Salvatore relented.

Then as the Mavs were complaining, the crew huddled at the FT line and De Rosa was apparently trying to explain what happened to Joey Crawford who seemed to being saying (based on his mannerisms) - "hey! they called for a TO and you granted it - it's over - 1 shot left" and then proceeded to talk about the remaining 1.9 secs.

I'd like to say that I would have rescinded TO and granted after the 2nd FT, but until you "walk a mile in another man's shoes...." you can never fully say what you would have done. I will certainly "file that one away" in my mind so that if I'm ever in that situation, I will be ready.

I guess this is a perfect example of the "rule book" official vs the "game management" official...

BTW, the officials DID NOT cause the Mavs to lose the game! There were any number of opportunities that the Mavs did not capitalize on...including the last shot of the game.

Jeff, how do you know all that for certain? Were you talking to Salvatore?

JR, again you are taking comments out of context and spinning them. I was not crucifying anyone. Perhaps I should have been clearer. I merely said how it could have been handled with all circumstances being the same, based on what I was able to see from my living room. I also offered a suggestion that could benefit others if a similar situation were to arise.

If it matters, I disagree with the official speaking ill of his former colleagues and selling them out. I was speaking more to the issue of handling the TO request.

I also saw Salvatori try to shuttle the players back onto the floor. It appeared to be in an effort to wait until the 2nd FT was attempted.

See, right there is what I personally don't agree with. You said that it <b>appears</b> that was what Salvatore was trying to do. Jeffpea basically said the same thing. However, <b>none</b> of us really know what actually went on out on the court. The only people that know for sure are Crawford, DeRosa and Salvatore, and the crew chief- Crawford- said that they had no choice but to give out the TO at that time. Absent any concrete information, I personally have no reason to doubt what the officials are saying. Apparently others do. That's OK though because we're talking about "opinions" here, and everybody is certainly entitled to their own. You're entitled to disagree with mine just as much as I'm entitled to disagree with yours.

Also, jeffpea made a comment about DeRosa being a "rule book official", as opposed to being a "game management official". Here's my opinion on that, so feel free to slice'n'dice me too if you want.:) When you hit the NBA Finals, you're looking at the twelve best officials in the NBA. Every single one of them is a "rule book official". Aamof, every official in the NBA is a "rule book official". The NBA will tolerate their officials missing a call or making a mistake in judgement. The NBA will <b>not</b> tolerate an official blowing or misapplying a rule during a game. My understanding is an NBA official will be suspended/fined immediately if they screw up a rule, and if they do it again they might be on the path to becoming history. All NBA officials are expected to know the rules perfectly from the git-go iow. From there, the officials get graded on other aspects, including game management. I think that it would be highly unlikely that an official would be graded highly enough to make the top twelve in the league and would <b>not</b> also have superior game management skills. Personally, I just can't envison Joe DeRosa or any other Finals' official being put in that spot without having excellent game management skills to go along with a good knowledge of the rules. Jmo.

That's because Salvatore did not know that Howard had requested the TO and that DeRosa had granted it.

JR, I respect what you are trying to say. I know that the NBA guys have an excellent understanding of the rule book and do a very good job of game management. I also think that these guys are trained in every aspect of late game situations, and the official could have done something else in this situation.

I know we had a discussion as to when to grant a TO not that long ago. As officials, it is not a TO until it is recognized and granted by the official, which is what the crew said happened. Fine, so be it. But this is where I think DeRosa could have asked for a confirmation as to the timing of the TO. A momentary delay to confirm would have kept the officials out of this crapstorm.

As far as the comments by the crew chief, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else. In my opinion, we are a crew, if one of us had an off night, we all had an off night and we will learn from our trials.

The man turned to DeRosa, twice requested TO, signaled TO, and started walking toward his bench. How much more confirmation do you need?

Face it. Howard screwed up. That's why he gets to the opposite side of the lane and has that stupid look on his face like, "What'd I do?"

I'd bet a year's salary that you would have granted the TO, just as Joe did. It's real easy to get on a discussion board two days later and say "Joe should have done this," or "Joe should have done that."

LOL! PWL, you're alright in my book!

Look, it is not a TO until the referee recognizes it. DeRosa did not have to recognize and grant it. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there. He knows that in end of game situations, 99% of the time, a team will want a TO after the 2nd FT so that they can inbound the ball at half court. It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

DeRosa is an excellent official, that is why he works at such a high level. I just believe the situation could have been handled better and that there would not have been an issue that put the focus of a well played and officiated game on a TO with 1.9 seconds left in OT. The focus is not on Howard, it is on the officials and that is what will be taken away from this game.

By the way, I would take your bet. It is easy to sit in front of the TV and say this and that, but when that whole situation was developing, I really thought that the crew was going to handle it differently.

Bull$hit.

The man turned to DeRosa, asked for the timeout twice, signaled with hias hands and started walking to his bench. Then, AND ONLY THEN, did Joe grant the timeout. Teams call timeout to freeze a shooter all the time. There's no reason to second guess him, grill him, or try to talk him out of it.

OK.

NBA rule 5VI and 5VII both say "A <b>player's</b> request for a timeout <b>shall</b> be granted only when the ball is dead or in control of the team making the request". Note the words <b>"shall be granted"</b>. Note also that it looks like a coach can only call a TO under one specific circumstance- for Infection Control. Iow, it looks like the situation was just what Joey Crawford said- - if a player asks for a TO, he gets it.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_5....av=ArticleList

JR & BBR,

I accept your arguments, I just offered an alternate solution given what I saw transpiring. All any official had to say to Howard or coach was, "right now?" That is not an interrogation/grilling of the guy.

If it's such common sense, why was Howard so confused? Why was Dallas so disorganized in a routine scenario? Why was Dallas so anxious to inform the officials they wanted a TO after the 2nd free throw? Why didn't they just wait for the 2nd free throw and call time-out? Common sense tells Dallas that the 3 veteran officials know the Mavs will be looking to call TO after the 2nd free throw, so why jump the gun?

Avery Johnson and his coaching staff should get the blame for poor game management skills.

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better. :rolleyes:

I'm just giving an alternate ending that's puts the blame on the coaches and players. Why don't they get the blame? How many time-out signals should DeRosa have ignored? :confused:

So let me get your version straight. You're putting the onus on Joe DeRosa because he didn't ask "Are you sure you want a time-out right now?" Well, if I'm an NBA player then anytime I'm in that situation I'm gonna freeze the free thrower by stepping in the lane right before the Lead administers and say "I want a time-out............but after this free throw" ;)

BTW, Mr. ICALLFOULS, all I did in my post was ask questions, I don't remember saying it should be handled any particular way. I noticed you didn't address any of the questions I asked.:rolleyes:

I don't know if I agree that no one could have done it better than BadNewsRef.

But for sure no one could have done it worse than Avery Johnson.

Bottom line: Dallas got all wrapped up in following Mark Cuban down the path of "the officials are screwing us" and they didn't take care of their business.

It's as simple as that. Anyone who's worked AAU ball has seen this drama played out over & over & over. Except the AAU coaches have an excuse: they don't do this for a living.

Apparently Dan Rather is in negotiations with Mark Cuban to get a cable show. You can't make this stuff up. :D

Fwiw
 

Talked with an NBA evaluator/former referee over the weekend. The comment was that "they had the opportunity to get it right, I don't know if they did." Yes, its pretty vague, but it leaves it open to speculate that more could have been done by the officials.

There is likely to be further rule clarification as a result of the situation.

All in all, the situation detracted from a good game, there is plenty of accountability/blame to go around.

Have you ever given or seen a time out given where no eye contact, physical or verbal communication between the asking player and official was given ?

Now add the context that the arena was so loud no one could hear each other.

Officials couldnt hear players

Coaches couldnt hear players

Players couldnt hear coaches.

There is always some sort of contact/acknowledgement between player/official before a timeout is given.

No where on the video can you find it from JHoward

I have now!

If you read all of my posts on this matter, I am of the opinion that more could have been done to confirm the TO request. The referee/evaluator I spoke to also thought more could have been done. However, all of these comments are based on what was observed from our different living rooms.

There are plenty of situations in which a player or a coach calls a time out in between free-throws in attempt to disrupt the flow of the shooter, causing it to miss. IMO, Josh Howard could of been thinking of the same thing only he didn't pay attention to the amt of timeouts that they have left.

As officials, we are putted on court to manage the game and to give out information. The request for a timeout was not once, but twice requested by Howard. DeRosa recognized a time out request by a player on court and granted it. Simple as that!!! Does the NBA rule book say anything about getting further clarification with your partners and coaches before granting a time-out??? I bet not.

Aside the black and white, this is the NBA. NBA players have been playing basketball all their lives and this kind of mental error shouldn’t be made. Don’t blame the ref for screwing the game up. All DeRosa did was followed what the rule book says and granted the timeout. If Dallas request for a time out and DeRosa didn’t give it to them because he felt it needed to be called after the second shots because strategically it is the right thing to do, then he really did f*cked it up. And what if Dallas did get to advance the ball and hit the winning shot. If that’s the case, is that fair for Miami because a timeout was ignored by the Refs, thus causing them to lose the game.

We see players make stupid mistakes all the time. A team could be up 1 pt w/ 3 seconds left and commit a foul on the jump shooters, putting the shooters on the line for free-throws. We, as officials, know that the player shouldn’t have committed the foul, but since the foul was made, we have to make the call. The same goes for time-out..

Did you watch the game? If you did, you can clearly see De Rosa and Salvatore confer. It also was pretty obvious when Salvatore was using both arms to wave all 10 players back onto the court while shaking his head (in the classic "NO" mannerism - side to side). After De Rosa talked to him Salvatore relented.............

It doesn't take a genius to understand what was occurring.

Soooooo......do you know for certain what was said in the conversation or are you speculating? If you do know for certain, would you consider revealing your sources?

Btw, no I didn't watch the game. NBA basketball bores the hell outa me anymore. I have seen that particular sequence at the end several times though. It looks like I'll be seeing it for the next year too, the way that the Dallas fans are refusing to let it go.

Maybe I've been an official too long, Jeff. Absent definitive proof, I'm <b>always</b> gonna give the benefit of <b>any</b> doubt to the officials.

Mr. C,

Josh Howard gave a time-out signal right in front of his chest and started walking across the paint. That is on film.