I though I had seen it all
This was a first for me. I was working an AAU game last week, boys 17 and under. Team A was really out classed by Team B. Near the end of the first half my partner and I could see that team B was becoming a little frustrated. There where a couple of hard fouls, so we where keeping an eye on them so things did not get out of hand. The buzzer sounds for the end of the half and team B has an 18 point lead. Both teams walk to there benches and I bring the ball to the scorers table. I turn around and walk across the court where my partner is waiting. As my partner and I are talking we hear what sounds like a scuffle. My first though was player from team A & team B are getting in to some kind of shoving match. But what I saw was a shock to me. A1 and A3 are having a knock down drag out FIST FIGHT!
This must have been just what to team needed because they played much more inspired basketball in the second have. |
Did you throw 'em both out?
NFHS or NCAA rules? |
Yea I have seen that before as well. Sometimes all it takes is a good old fashioned A$$ whoopin to wake everyone up. I watched my team captain (many moons ago) in college take a guys head and bang it into a wall a couple of times cus the guy was slackin off and mouthin the coach. It woke the whole team up and needless to say the guy never played the rest of the game or the next.
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I'm not sure I understand, Team B is winning and they are becoming frustrated? Up by 18 and frustrated!
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What if the coach hadn't have sat them? |
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JR Remember it was half time when the fight started fighting. When the coach and the players broke up the fight they where removed from the GYM. The coach told my partner they where done for the night and we where ok with that. You are correct, we could have officially ejected then but that where already gone. So we just went forward with the second half. |
Fighting is an automatic ejection and possible suspension of multiple games thereafter.
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This isn't a fight.
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Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.
MTD, Sr. |
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mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.
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But it just doesn't seem right to me that a full-fledged fist fight can break out, and we can do nothing about it because it's just between teammates. So, if the coach decides he's going to be old-school and let them fight it out, then decide he's going to put the kid that "wins" in the game because he feels that kid showed his toughness...and we can do nothing? |
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But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards. I guess this means I'll have to break out the books and start studying again before camps... |
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4-23. Fighting Art. 1. Fighting is an attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet, or a combative action by one or more players, a coach or other team personnel. |
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Personally, I'd say that NFHS rules warrant flagrant technical fouls to each player, under rule 10-3-7 or 10-4-1. I'd also say that their head coach should have been charged with 2 indirect technical fouls as per rule 10-4-1 and case book play 10.4.1SitB. Note the last sentence of that case book play; it says that "If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified". I don't know what could be more flagrant during a game than a "knock-down drag-out fist fight", especially a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" that happened <b>on</b> the court, not <b>in</b> the dressing room. |
a fight by benchwarmers on two opposing teams is a fight by nfhs rules and must be dealt with accordingly. a fight by two players on the same team is honestly a coaches headache and adding a T to that will just add fuel to the fire.
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Jmo, but I don't think that a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" should ever be ignored during a game, no matter what the circumstances, and especially when that fight takes place <b>ON</b> the court. |
Rule 10-4-9 states, "be charged with fighting" and doesn't specify if it's between opponents or teammates, but the penalty is a flagrant foul. Thus, it's an automatic ejection. I know rule 4-18 talks about the act being against an opponent, but if you were challenged on the rule, then you could just show 10-4-9 and be correct. As if the coaches would know where else to look in the rulebook!
I think this is an intuitive situation. A fight is a fight regardless of who is involved. It's clearly unsporting and needs to be dealt with by the OFFICIALS and not simply the coach. |
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Penalize it however you want to, I'm sure you can find some rule to justify it. But by rule, it's not a fight. |
flagrant T
Well, here's another possibility. If there was a fist fight I'm sure there was some major league cursing going on. Hit them with flagrant T's for the MF and IDGAF bombs that were dropped.
NFHS 4-19-4...A flagrant foul ...or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. ...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. |
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What would you do? |
This is one of these classic "I believe this.........you believe that..." conversations.
This is an off-season tournament and at least where I live (I know Rocky hates when I say this :D) there would be nothing anyone could do about this situation except the tournament director. I have been around when officials have made very strict rules interpretations only to see the TD take over and do what they feel is best. This is also why I give a lot of Ts during the summer either. But that is a story for another day. Yes, you could T up everyone, but you could be overruled by someone that feels this is not a big deal. All you can do is convince the people this is the rule or this is the best thing. If they choose to not buy your point of view, there is not a lot you can do about it. Of course you could complain and try to stand on the NF rulebook, but it is only go to go so far if forces want their way. Remember you are the hired help, you do likely are not given the same power as a regular season game. You have a few choices to make and find out if you can live with them. After all it is summer ball, not everyone gives a damn. Peace |
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As I said, if you choose to assess penalties, you can certain rationalize it. But that type of reaching doesn't usually go over well here. |
I know evrybody loves Fiba here :p so I want you to answer this question thinking fiba rules xD
Now for the question, I've been taught that you can never penalise anyone if two players on the same team fights. Is this correct? And what do you do if two players on the same team fight a) in the bencharea during play b) during halftime c) on the court (during play) |
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There is no one answer voyager, only a lot of opinions. |
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