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Ref-X Fri May 26, 2006 08:31am

I though I had seen it all
 
This was a first for me. I was working an AAU game last week, boys 17 and under. Team A was really out classed by Team B. Near the end of the first half my partner and I could see that team B was becoming a little frustrated. There where a couple of hard fouls, so we where keeping an eye on them so things did not get out of hand. The buzzer sounds for the end of the half and team B has an 18 point lead. Both teams walk to there benches and I bring the ball to the scorers table. I turn around and walk across the court where my partner is waiting. As my partner and I are talking we hear what sounds like a scuffle. My first though was player from team A & team B are getting in to some kind of shoving match. But what I saw was a shock to me. A1 and A3 are having a knock down drag out FIST FIGHT!
This must have been just what to team needed because they played much more inspired basketball in the second have.

Jurassic Referee Fri May 26, 2006 08:38am

Did you throw 'em both out?

NFHS or NCAA rules?

SmokeEater Fri May 26, 2006 08:39am

Yea I have seen that before as well. Sometimes all it takes is a good old fashioned A$$ whoopin to wake everyone up. I watched my team captain (many moons ago) in college take a guys head and bang it into a wall a couple of times cus the guy was slackin off and mouthin the coach. It woke the whole team up and needless to say the guy never played the rest of the game or the next.

REFVA Fri May 26, 2006 08:40am

I'm not sure I understand, Team B is winning and they are becoming frustrated? Up by 18 and frustrated!

Ref-X Fri May 26, 2006 09:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
I'm not sure I understand, Team B is winning and they are becoming frustrated? Up by 18 and frustrated!

I'm Sorry typo. It was team A that was frustrated.

Dan_ref Fri May 26, 2006 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Did you throw 'em both out?

NFHS or NCAA rules?

Sounds like Extreme Boxing rules.

Ref-X Fri May 26, 2006 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Did you throw 'em both out?

NFHS or NCAA rules?

It was NFHS rules. We didn't have to throw them out the coach sat them both out.

Jurassic Referee Fri May 26, 2006 01:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref-X
It was NFHS rules. We didn't have to throw them out the coach sat them both out.

They had a <b>fight</b> and you <b>didn't</b> toss them?

What if the coach hadn't have sat them?

Ref-X Fri May 26, 2006 01:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
They had a <b>fight</b> and you <b>didn't</b> toss them?

What if the coach hadn't have sat them?


JR
Remember it was half time when the fight started fighting. When the coach and the players broke up the fight they where removed from the GYM. The coach told my partner they where done for the night and we where ok with that. You are correct, we could have officially ejected then but that where already gone. So we just went forward with the second half.

REFVA Fri May 26, 2006 02:07pm

Fighting is an automatic ejection and possible suspension of multiple games thereafter.

Ref-X Fri May 26, 2006 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
Fighting is an automatic ejection and possible suspension of multiple games thereafter.

You are correct. But this is some spring league, where the coaches assign there own Officials, they are also the sight managers. They say it is aau,but I dout that also. So I have know idea it there will be any supensions handed out. If I had to guess, I would say that the next game those two players would be back on he floor.

REFVA Fri May 26, 2006 02:31pm

Quote:

But this is some spring league, where the coaches assign there own Officials, they are also the sight managers. They say it is aau,but I dout that also. So I have know idea it there will be any supensions handed out. If I had to guess, I would say that the next game those two players would be back on he floor.
That makes it tough on the officials to do their job. They'll be the first to sue you if someone gets hurt due to a questionable call....Can't speak for you, but I wouldn't do it if I had those kinds of restraints on me.....Your reputation is on the line...

BktBallRef Fri May 26, 2006 02:36pm

This isn't a fight.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
They had a fight and you didn't toss them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
Fighting is an automatic ejection and possible suspension of multiple games thereafter.

This isn't a fight. Why would you eject anyone? :confused:

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri May 26, 2006 02:39pm

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

M&M Guy Fri May 26, 2006 02:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

Ok, I admit I need a long weekend, but I'm confused - where's the line being drawn? Is it because the fists are being thrown between teammates? Or, is it because it's halftime? It still happened while the officials were on the floor, so isn't that still within the officials' jurisdiction? If the exact same scenario was happening between two opponents, would you let that go as well? It just seems like a no-brainer; both kids are ejected. Since the coach came up and said they were already gone, and this is a spring game, I wouldn't thought twice about anything else. During the regular season, I would still make sure it was marked in the book that they were ejected for fighting, so there is no doubt later on.

Ref-X Fri May 26, 2006 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by REFVA
That makes it tough on the officials to do their job. They'll be the first to sue you if someone gets hurt due to a questionable call....Can't speak for you, but I wouldn't do it if I had those kinds of restraints on me.....Your reputation is on the line...

Unfortunately many of the summer and spring leagues are like this. I don’t work that many leagues like this. this is the only one. This is the first time there has been any kind of issue.

deecee Fri May 26, 2006 03:22pm

mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.

BktBallRef Fri May 26, 2006 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules.

Then it's not a fight as far as officials are concerned.

BktBallRef Fri May 26, 2006 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Ok, I admit I need a long weekend, but I'm confused - where's the line being drawn? Is it because the fists are being thrown between teammates? Or, is it because it's halftime? It still happened while the officials were on the floor, so isn't that still within the officials' jurisdiction? If the exact same scenario was happening between two opponents, would you let that go as well? It just seems like a no-brainer; both kids are ejected. Since the coach came up and said they were already gone, and this is a spring game, I wouldn't thought twice about anything else. During the regular season, I would still make sure it was marked in the book that they were ejected for fighting, so there is no doubt later on.

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

M&M Guy Fri May 26, 2006 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee
mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.

Ok, I guess it wouldn't surprise me, but are you sure that it's in the book that a fight is between two opponents, rather than just between two players? However, I'm not sure I would bring in the issue that it had no effect on the game. What if a fight broke out between two bench-warmers, one from each team? I wouldn't let that go because it "doesn't have an effect on the game".

But it just doesn't seem right to me that a full-fledged fist fight can break out, and we can do nothing about it because it's just between teammates. So, if the coach decides he's going to be old-school and let them fight it out, then decide he's going to put the kid that "wins" in the game because he feels that kid showed his toughness...and we can do nothing?

M&M Guy Fri May 26, 2006 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

I guess I've never seen this happen, and I hope I never will. I guess I've tried to pay close enough attention to the issues of fighting, such as who's fighting, who was a player and who left the bench, the number of players from each team so to determine offsetting penalties, etc. But I obviously didn't look close enough at the actual definition of a "fight".

But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards.

I guess this means I'll have to break out the books and start studying again before camps...

Dan_ref Fri May 26, 2006 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, at least for the ncaa rules this is just incorrect

4-23. Fighting
Art. 1. Fighting is an attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet, or a combative action by one or more players, a coach or other team personnel.

Jurassic Referee Fri May 26, 2006 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

So.....if you get a "knock-down drag out fist fight", as described in the first post, during an official's jurisdiction, you and MTD Sr. are saying that there is nothing that the officials can call? Is that right?

Personally, I'd say that NFHS rules warrant flagrant technical fouls to each player, under rule 10-3-7 or 10-4-1. I'd also say that their head coach should have been charged with 2 indirect technical fouls as per rule 10-4-1 and case book play 10.4.1SitB. Note the last sentence of that case book play; it says that "If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified". I don't know what could be more flagrant during a game than a "knock-down drag-out fist fight", especially a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" that happened <b>on</b> the court, not <b>in</b> the dressing room.

deecee Fri May 26, 2006 04:20pm

a fight by benchwarmers on two opposing teams is a fight by nfhs rules and must be dealt with accordingly. a fight by two players on the same team is honestly a coaches headache and adding a T to that will just add fuel to the fire.

Jurassic Referee Fri May 26, 2006 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards.

M, you don't have to call it fighting. You can call it an an flagrant "unsporting act" by each player under rules 10-3-7 or 10-4-1.

Jmo, but I don't think that a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" should ever be ignored during a game, no matter what the circumstances, and especially when that fight takes place <b>ON</b> the court.

Dribble Fri May 26, 2006 04:36pm

Rule 10-4-9 states, "be charged with fighting" and doesn't specify if it's between opponents or teammates, but the penalty is a flagrant foul. Thus, it's an automatic ejection. I know rule 4-18 talks about the act being against an opponent, but if you were challenged on the rule, then you could just show 10-4-9 and be correct. As if the coaches would know where else to look in the rulebook!

I think this is an intuitive situation. A fight is a fight regardless of who is involved. It's clearly unsporting and needs to be dealt with by the OFFICIALS and not simply the coach.

M&M Guy Fri May 26, 2006 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
M, you don't have to call it fighting. You can call it an an flagrant "unsporting act" by each player under rules 10-3-7 or 10-4-1.

Jmo, but I don't think that a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" should ever be ignored during a game, no matter what the circumstances, and especially when that fight takes place <b>ON</b> the court.

Ok, I like that approach. I guess I would still have to be careful as to the exact characterization of the penalty, due to issues of suspensions as a result of a "fight" vs. just your typical garden-variety flagrant unsporting act. I would hate to just stand there and only be a judge ("Looks like the goofy ref scored 10-8 in favor of the tall kid this round...")

Jurassic Referee Fri May 26, 2006 05:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I guess I would still have to be careful as to the exact characterization of the penalty, due to issues of suspensions as a result of a "fight" vs. just your typical garden-variety flagrant unsporting act.

Naw, no need to be careful imo. That case book play sez all team members are bench personnel during an intermission. Rule 10-4-1 sez that bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul. I really don't know how anybody can say that a knock-down drag-out fist fight out on the court <b>isn't</b> a flagrant unsporting act. Just follow the rules- 2 flagrant technical fouls under 10-4-1 and 2 indirect T's to the head coach. Start the next half with 4 FT's followed by a throw-in for the T's, and also charge that team with 2 fouls towards the bonus in that half. The arrow doesn't change. Your butt is covered under the rules. Write it up after the game and let whoever is responsible for that league deal with any further discipline.

BktBallRef Fri May 26, 2006 06:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
So.....if you get a "knock-down drag out fist fight", as described in the first post, during an official's jurisdiction, you and MTD Sr. are saying that there is nothing that the officials can call? Is that right?

Looking back over the thread....for some reason, i don't find where I said that.

Penalize it however you want to, I'm sure you can find some rule to justify it. But by rule, it's not a fight.

Raymond Fri May 26, 2006 07:50pm

flagrant T
 
Well, here's another possibility. If there was a fist fight I'm sure there was some major league cursing going on. Hit them with flagrant T's for the MF and IDGAF bombs that were dropped.

NFHS 4-19-4...A flagrant foul ...or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. ...If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct.

Jurassic Referee Fri May 26, 2006 08:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Looking back over the thread....for some reason, i don't find where I said that.

Penalize it however you want to, I'm sure you can find some rule to justify it. But by rule, it's not a fight.

I know you didn't say that.....that's why I asked the question.

What would you do?

JRutledge Fri May 26, 2006 08:59pm

This is one of these classic "I believe this.........you believe that..." conversations.

This is an off-season tournament and at least where I live (I know Rocky hates when I say this :D) there would be nothing anyone could do about this situation except the tournament director. I have been around when officials have made very strict rules interpretations only to see the TD take over and do what they feel is best. This is also why I give a lot of Ts during the summer either. But that is a story for another day.

Yes, you could T up everyone, but you could be overruled by someone that feels this is not a big deal. All you can do is convince the people this is the rule or this is the best thing. If they choose to not buy your point of view, there is not a lot you can do about it. Of course you could complain and try to stand on the NF rulebook, but it is only go to go so far if forces want their way. Remember you are the hired help, you do likely are not given the same power as a regular season game. You have a few choices to make and find out if you can live with them. After all it is summer ball, not everyone gives a damn.

Peace

BktBallRef Fri May 26, 2006 09:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I know you didn't say that.....that's why I asked the question.

What would you do?

What I would not do is penalize the team because two of their teammates got into. I'm sure I would have a discussion with the coach to learn the particulars and hope that he has already taken care if the situation. As long as he's taking some action, I would be inclined to allow him to handle it.

As I said, if you choose to assess penalties, you can certain rationalize it. But that type of reaching doesn't usually go over well here.

crazy voyager Sat May 27, 2006 10:25am

I know evrybody loves Fiba here :p so I want you to answer this question thinking fiba rules xD

Now for the question, I've been taught that you can never penalise anyone if two players on the same team fights. Is this correct? And what do you do if two players on the same team fight
a) in the bencharea during play
b) during halftime
c) on the court (during play)

BktBallRef Sat May 27, 2006 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy voyager
And what do you do if two players on the same team fight?

Maybe I'm the one that's crazy but isn't that what this entire thread is about? :confused:

There is no one answer voyager, only a lot of opinions.


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