I though I had seen it all

[Ref-X]

Originally Posted by REFVA

Fighting is an automatic ejection and possible suspension of multiple games thereafter.

You are correct. But this is some spring league, where the coaches assign there own Officials, they are also the sight managers. They say it is aau,but I dout that also. So I have know idea it there will be any supensions handed out. If I had to guess, I would say that the next game those two players would be back on he floor.

[REFVA]

But this is some spring league, where the coaches assign there own Officials, they are also the sight managers. They say it is aau,but I dout that also. So I have know idea it there will be any supensions handed out. If I had to guess, I would say that the next game those two players would be back on he floor.

That makes it tough on the officials to do their job. They'll be the first to sue you if someone gets hurt due to a questionable call....Can't speak for you, but I wouldn't do it if I had those kinds of restraints on me.....Your reputation is on the line...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

Ok, I admit I need a long weekend, but I'm confused - where's the line being drawn? Is it because the fists are being thrown between teammates? Or, is it because it's halftime? It still happened while the officials were on the floor, so isn't that still within the officials' jurisdiction? If the exact same scenario was happening between two opponents, would you let that go as well? It just seems like a no-brainer; both kids are ejected. Since the coach came up and said they were already gone, and this is a spring game, I wouldn't thought twice about anything else. During the regular season, I would still make sure it was marked in the book that they were ejected for fighting, so there is no doubt later on.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, I admit I need a long weekend, but I'm confused - where's the line being drawn? Is it because the fists are being thrown between teammates? Or, is it because it's halftime? It still happened while the officials were on the floor, so isn't that still within the officials' jurisdiction? If the exact same scenario was happening between two opponents, would you let that go as well? It just seems like a no-brainer; both kids are ejected. Since the coach came up and said they were already gone, and this is a spring game, I wouldn't thought twice about anything else. During the regular season, I would still make sure it was marked in the book that they were ejected for fighting, so there is no doubt later on.

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

I guess I've never seen this happen, and I hope I never will. I guess I've tried to pay close enough attention to the issues of fighting, such as who's fighting, who was a player and who left the bench, the number of players from each team so to determine offsetting penalties, etc. But I obviously didn't look close enough at the actual definition of a "fight".

But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards.

I guess this means I'll have to break out the books and start studying again before camps...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But it's just kinda fascinating that the NF would differentiate fighting as only between opponents, and not between teammates, coaches, fans, etc. Yet, cursing is penalized no matter who it's directed towards.

M, you don't have to call it fighting. You can call it an an flagrant "unsporting act" by each player under rules 10-3-7 or 10-4-1.

Jmo, but I don't think that a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" should ever be ignored during a game, no matter what the circumstances, and especially when that fight takes place ON the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

M&M, it's not a fight unless opponents are involved. This is nothing as far as the officials are concerned. (4-18)

So.....if you get a "knock-down drag out fist fight", as described in the first post, during an official's jurisdiction, you and MTD Sr. are saying that there is nothing that the officials can call? Is that right?

Personally, I'd say that NFHS rules warrant flagrant technical fouls to each player, under rule 10-3-7 or 10-4-1. I'd also say that their head coach should have been charged with 2 indirect technical fouls as per rule 10-4-1 and case book play 10.4.1SitB. Note the last sentence of that case book play; it says that "If the conduct is flagrant, the team member shall be disqualified". I don't know what could be more flagrant during a game than a "knock-down drag-out fist fight", especially a "knock-down drag-out fist fight" that happened on the court, not in the dressing room.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So.....if you get a "knock-down drag out fist fight", as described in the first post, during an official's jurisdiction, you and MTD Sr. are saying that there is nothing that the officials can call? Is that right?

Looking back over the thread....for some reason, i don't find where I said that.

Penalize it however you want to, I'm sure you can find some rule to justify it. But by rule, it's not a fight.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules.

Then it's not a fight as far as officials are concerned.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, this was a fight, but it was not a fight as defined in NFHS and NCAA rules. This disagreement happened between teammates during the halftime intermission. This is a problem that falls under the coach's jurisdiction. Do NOT get involved.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, at least for the ncaa rules this is just incorrect

4-23. Fighting
Art. 1. Fighting is an attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet, or a combative action by one or more players, a coach or other team personnel.

[deecee]

a fight by benchwarmers on two opposing teams is a fight by nfhs rules and must be dealt with accordingly. a fight by two players on the same team is honestly a coaches headache and adding a T to that will just add fuel to the fire.

[Ref-X]

Originally Posted by REFVA

That makes it tough on the officials to do their job. They'll be the first to sue you if someone gets hurt due to a questionable call....Can't speak for you, but I wouldn't do it if I had those kinds of restraints on me.....Your reputation is on the line...

Unfortunately many of the summer and spring leagues are like this. I don’t work that many leagues like this. this is the only one. This is the first time there has been any kind of issue.

[deecee]

mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by deecee

mark denucci is right -- a fight by nfhs rules is between opponents -- this is the coaches problem and he has to deal with it -- trust me it isnt easy on him but why would you penalize team B for a fight between 2 of team b's players that had no effect on the game and the coach dealt with the problem.

Ok, I guess it wouldn't surprise me, but are you sure that it's in the book that a fight is between two opponents, rather than just between two players? However, I'm not sure I would bring in the issue that it had no effect on the game. What if a fight broke out between two bench-warmers, one from each team? I wouldn't let that go because it "doesn't have an effect on the game".

But it just doesn't seem right to me that a full-fledged fist fight can break out, and we can do nothing about it because it's just between teammates. So, if the coach decides he's going to be old-school and let them fight it out, then decide he's going to put the kid that "wins" in the game because he feels that kid showed his toughness...and we can do nothing?