Possible Double Standard
 

I am not saying that this is the case in every District. I had a parent come up to me the other day and thank me for a very good job officiating his sons game. I was surprised because his sons team was on the losing end. He then proceeded to tell me his view about a possible double standard in basketball. I guess I was intreged and let him continue. He said he noticed that many officials are very strict about hand checking and bumping on the perimeter players, yet tend to ignore blatent banging and bumping inthe post. He said he had been told that it is expected that some contact will be made in the paint. I thanked him for his comments and went home to ponder the whole situation. I wonder if that is really a problem? Hmmmmm, something to think about and discuss at an association meeting perhaps.

The post is more crowded and congested, so you could expect that more non-foul contact would occur, and because of the congestion defining contact as a clear foul is more difficult. When you isolate a defender on the dribbler, not only is it easier to identify the foul - it is also obvious to everyone else.

Hmmm...did you point out to the parent that hand-checking has been a POE for several years and that's why it's called like that? (Hopefully he didn't know that post play has been a POE also!!)

Seriously though, the requirements for a foul in the post are displacement and dislodging...with several big bodies, you can have quite a bit of contact without displacement...whereas the requirements for hand-checking do not require as much contact.

A handcheck out front is usually more likely to cause a disadvantage than some pushing by post players off the ball. I tend to talk more to post players about their play. Out front there isn't alot of time for that so you have to use the whistle more.

Thanks for all your replies so far. I didn't talk too much to this parent just listened. He was not complaining just pointing out something he noticed. He was a former player at the University level here. Anyway It is an interesting point of view and when you really think about hand checking, it is about displacement/inhibiting a players movement as well. I have really been assessing how I handle the play at both positions and it gives me something to think about this sumer.

I was a post player during my days in the military. I used to have the same complaint when I was playing. But it's sometimes hard for non-officials to grasp the concept advantage/dis-advantage and all the other variables that might come into play when it comes to foul selection.

I learned as I got older to 1) adjust the physicality of my post play (offensively and defensively) to how the officials were calling the game and 2) never to lay a hand on those puny, little, fragile guards who would whine even when they got the call

I've gotten my revenge now that I'm a referee by making sure that any time a post player is getting double-teamed by a guard and a big man, that any fouls that I call go against the guards ;)

There is no double standard. The rules require a certain type of contact at one part of the floor that they do not with another part of the floor. All rules sets have standards in one aspect of the game that do not apply in another. It is interesting that he might think that way, but that does not mean he has a real point either.

Peace

Rules reference? Where does it say you can bang on a post and its legal?

If I push a player on the perimeter and its a foul then it is a foul if I push a player in the paint. If its called outside but not inside that could be perceived (and perception is some peoples reality) as a double standard.

I think that is the definition of a double standard - two different rules depending upon a circumstance.

Where did I say anything about "bang on in the post?" I said that the rules in many parts of any sport allow for things in one aspect of the rules and not the same thing in another part.

Just read the hand checking rule (which only involves the ball). Then when you look at the screening rule, time and distance is a factor in whether contact is a foul or not a foul. Then look at LGP rules where there is no time and distance to be able to draw PC foul. Also the way to draw a foul on a PC foul is very different than what requires drawing a foul on a screen.

I agree that perception can be reality to some people. That does not mean it is reality. I can perceive UFOs exist; it does not make it true.

Peace

Thanks for your insight and opinions. The rules you quote are indeed specific. I still am leaning toward the fact that if its a rule it has to be called EVERYWHERE on the court. I for one will be less lenient on the contact allowed by the posts players.

The definition of a double standard is something being applied to two different groups or situations based on the same set of facts. A double standard is also considered unfair. I do not treat a rule that involves the ball handler and a rule that deals with a player without the ball as unfair. I guess you do have the right to your opinion, but not everyone has to agree with that opinion.

Peace

[QUOTE=SmokeEater] I still am leaning toward the fact that if its a rule it has to be called EVERYWHERE on the court. [ QUOTE]

And yet hand-checking, which in the OP was one of the things disgruntled dad brought up, can only involve the ball-handler...so you aren't going to start calling hand-checking when the post player (without the ball) is cutting across the key and the defender has his/her hand on the hip, are you??? Please don't...

[QUOTE=rockyroad]Say what?:confused:

How about a post player pushing off a defender with a hand/elbow/arm to get to an entry pass or gain good position?

As I understand the concept, hand-checking principles apply to all 10 players on the floor- including the ball handler. We try to teach our officials to call the hand/elbow/arm if their actions slows, prevents, impedes or displaces an opponent from gaining an advantageous position legally. Of course, it was, is and always will be a judgement call.

Getting away from specific labels, I think that what we're basically talking about here is illegal contact that gains an unfair advantage. That should be addressed all over the floor. Note that I didn't say that it should be always called; it should be addressed.

JMVHMHBO......

No and just so everyone is clear the parent was not disgruntled. He was calm and thankful for the game just played. He just wanted to share an opinion.

To answer your other question, no I will not call handchecking if the post is moving across the key and the defender has a hand on him. However if he is impeded by the use of said hand I will dang straight pay more attention and get the hold call more often (as an example only), or when the post is trying to post up and they are "fighting" for position I will have to look closer at who is instigating the contact.

Remember I didnt say it was this way everywhere it just is something to think about. Does a "push" or "hand check" get called sooner on the perimeter players then it would on a post?

Just to be antagonistical
 

NCAA Apendix III Section 14. Men’s Hand-Checking (Impeding the Progress of a Player)
To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:
a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
b. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
c. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
APPENDIX III OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-167

Points of Emphasis for Men Rough Physical Play and Illegal Contact
For the ninth consecutive year, an aspect of rough play is a point of emphasis. This length of time demonstrates the rules committee's consistentand persistent concern that rough play must be properly addressed. Motivated by the basic premise that the collegiate game of basketball is a game of skill, it was the committee's contention that the officials' focus of attention shall be directed toward eliminating rough play and illegal contact in the low post, off the ball, in cutting and screening situations and during hand-checking anywhere on the playing count. Of special concern is the play, without the ball, in the low post by the offensive and defensive players. An offensive low post player, dislodging a defensive player from an established position by pushing or backing in, shall be called for a personal foul. A post player who uses his hands, forearms or elbows to prevent a defensive player from attaining or maintaining a legal guarding position shall be charged with a personal foul. The player using the “swim stroke” movement to lower the arm of an opponent shall be assessed with a personal foul. Likewise, a defensive low post player who uses his hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from attaining or maintaining a legal offensive position, shall be charged with a personal foul. Furthermore, it shall be a personal foul when a defensive player pushes with his leg or knee into the rear of the offensive player. When illegal physical contact without the ball in the low post results in a player attaining an unequal favorable position, an advantage to perform has been gained by that player. It is consequential to observe the offensive and defensive play in the low post from the beginning since rough play and illegal maneuvers may cause and affect subsequent physicality.

Probably...should it? No. And keep in mind that once the "post" player receives the ball, they are no longer a "post" player, they are now the ball-handler, so the handchecking rules most definitely apply to them also!

HAHA BadNews aka Captain Obvious. J/K thanks for posting the quotes.

I think that Jurassic Ref summed up the whole thought process.

and because we are proponents of Title IX in this forum
 

Points of Emphasis for Women Displacement
The following guidelines have been established to help coaches, players
and officials achieve a level of play that will allow freedom of movement
for all players on the court and make the game a free-flowing, exciting
game to watch. Officials must enforce these guidelines to ensure that freedom of movement is allowed in the game.
1. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO POST PLAY
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. A post player is defined as an offensive player with or without the ball who has her back to the basket and is either in the lane or just outside the lane. (The lane includes the foul line.) Any player on the court can be a post player as long as they have their back to the basket and are in the lane or just outside the lane.
b. A player with the ball and her back to the basket is not a post player if she is not in the lane or just outside the lane. The defender may not make contact with the arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) in this situation.
c. A defensive player may place one arm-bar on the offensive post player. Extending the established arm-bar and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
d. A defensive player may place one hand, with a bend in the elbow on the offensive post player. Extending the arm and locking the elbow and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
e. Post players may be defended by placing one arm-bar or one hand with a bend in the elbow on the opponent to maintain position, any holding or displacement is illegal and a foul shall be called. Two hands, two arm-bars or an arm-bar and a hand used to hold or displace are illegal and a foul shall be called.
f. Adefensive player pushing a leg or knee into the rear of the offensive post player shall be called for a personal foul.
g. An offensive post player may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
h. The offensive post player may not grab the leg or body of the defender, hook or in any way displace or hold.
i. An offensive post player becomes a ball handler (see ball handler or dribbler guidelines) when she turns and faces the basket with the ball.
j. The offensive post player with or without the ball cannot initiate contact and displace the defender who has established a legal guarding position. (see principle of verticality)
k. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching each other but only to maintain position. Any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

2. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO THE BALL HANDLER OR DRIBBLER
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. Incidental contact of the hand shall not be called a foul, however if the arm is straight (no bend in the elbow) or holding, pushing or displacement occurs a foul shall be called. Continual or continuous use of the hand on the ball handler or dribbler is not permitted and a foul shall be called.
b. The arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may not have contact with the ball-handler/dribbler. A defender that has contact with the dribbler with the arm-bar in any way shall be called for a personal foul.
c. Any displacement by either the defense or the offense shall be a foul. Contact resulting in displacement either with the hands or body is a foul.
d. Adribbler may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
e. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching momentarily, however any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

3. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO CUTTING
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. If the defender beats the cutter to the spot an arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may be used to absorb the contact, however extending the established arm-bar to cause displacement is a personal foul.
b. Holding the cutter with the hands, body or arm-bar and pushing the cutter with the hands, body or arm-bar off her intended path is a personal foul.
c. The cutter may not initiate contact or push or hold the defender in any way.
d. Displacement by either the offense or defense shall be a personal foul.

We also need to make it clear that the Men's Hand checking rules are very different than the Women's Hand checking rule. Also there is no such language at the NF as there is at the NCAA level. I am going to assume that we are not talking about the NCAA level from the original post. So we must take this for what it is worth. Also the NCAA has a tape every year and they do not consider all contact to be the same based on the plays they see. Actually the NCAA feels there are areas where officials make calls when nothing should be called. Then to muddy the water even more, no one advocates a foul fest on every type of contact. You do not have to take my word for it, attend a camp and find out what is considered a "college call" and what is a "HS call."

Peace

Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

Have you ever looked at Appendix III in detail?
 

The fact that both Men's and Women's ball addresses the issues differently in the back of the rulebook (under the Officiating Guidelines in the back of the NCAA Rulebook), suggests there is a different philosophy on hand checking and post play. They do not use the same language or the same points to talk about these rules. Men's basketball goes out of their way to call hand checking "Impeding the process of a Player." At the same time Women's uses the term "displacement" over and over to describe illegal contact with the ball handler. The games are different and they committees are different. Not sure why you would be surprised that they have different philosophies as to what should be called and why. Maybe this is why both sides have their own officials?

Peace

Let's do a compare and contrast
 

So let's see...the Men's rule says "keeps a hand on" but the Women's rule says "continual use of the hand"...Men's rule talks about the "forearm on the opponent" while the Women's rule calls it an arm bar...Men's rule says "continually jabs" while the Women's rule says "continual or continuous use of the hands"...so contrary to what was stated in an earlier post, there is NO difference between the way NCAAM and NCAAW want the handcheck called. The only difference is that in their POE's NCAAW lumped each POE under the overall category of Displacement and so they added wording to the effect that neither the ballhandler nor the defender may displace each other...that does not mean the handcheck rules are different between the two...

So in essence, your contention is that no double standard exists because you say so.

"A double standard, according to the World Book Dictionary, is a standard applied more leniently to one group than to another."

As in post players vs. ball handlers.

As a wise man once said, "It is interesting that he might think that way, but that does not mean he has a real point either. "

It says in the dictionary that I have read that a double standard is an "unfair situation." I do not see two different rules cover different aspects of the game as unfair. What is unfair is also a subjective term as well. So if you feel that there is a double standard, then feel there is a double standard. What difference does it make if you disagree with my point of view? I just do not put a lot of stock in some Dad that comes along and makes a comment.

Peace

You are right Rocky, both Men's and Women's officiating philosophies are exactly the same. ;)

Peace

you say that the RULES are different for handchecking, then when proven wrong you start saying the PHILOSOPHIES are different

You have all those people on ignore? Wow... :eek:


:p

You are going to change something you do because some guy came up to you and made a statement in conversation? It is not like this conversation took place at a camp or you the conversation took place with a very experienced coach or official. Billy Packer and Bill Walton have a lot of experience and knowledge in the game too. I do not know if they said something to me I would change my officiating philosophy or try to call the game differently if I had a personal conversation with them.

Peace

Well Rocky, I have worked both Men's and Women's basketball in my career. I have attended NCAA Rules meetings for both genders. I have current officiating friends that are women's officials. I know officials that work D1 on both sides. I have talked to these officials about this and many other subjects. They philosophies are different. The fact that they use different language and bullet points to say what is important tells me they do not view the game the same. Also the President of one of my association constantly talks about Women's college and has shown NCAA tape over the years and they have different philosophies. I even work for a college assignor (I once worked for another guy that also assigned both) that assigns both Men's and Women's basketball and he talks a lot about the differences and he does not put Men's and Women's officials together during camp so the officials will not call the game differently or use different mechanics.

I do not understand your obsession with having to always validate your opinion as law or the only answer.

I do not need a button to tell me who to listen to and not to listen to. I have not worked a single college game with any of these people, nor attended any camp with these people as well. It is sad that people cannot stand up for what they believe in but have to have people on an internet site (who I have never met) back me up.
Peace

As far as how the words are used literally, I think you're right. But the way it's officiated this is often the case. I think where the contact occurs does make some difference in a lot of localities, and it also appears to me that it depends on whether the contact is on-ball, or off-ball. Is that a double standard? Well maybe, but in some areas, I'm sure it's the way things are called.