Possible Double Standard

JRutledge

We also need to make it clear that the Men's Hand checking rules are very different than the Women's Hand checking rule. Also there is no such language at the NF as there is at the NCAA level. I am going to assume that we are not talking about the NCAA level from the original post. So we must take this for what it is worth. Also the NCAA has a tape every year and they do not consider all contact to be the same based on the plays they see. Actually the NCAA feels there are areas where officials make calls when nothing should be called. Then to muddy the water even more, no one advocates a foul fest on every type of contact. You do not have to take my word for it, attend a camp and find out what is considered a "college call" and what is a "HS call."

Peace

rockyroad

JRutledge wrote
We also need to make it clear that the Men's Hand checking rules are very different than the Women's Hand checking rule.

Peace

Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

JRutledge

rockyroad wrote
Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

The fact that both Men's and Women's ball addresses the issues differently in the back of the rulebook (under the Officiating Guidelines in the back of the NCAA Rulebook), suggests there is a different philosophy on hand checking and post play. They do not use the same language or the same points to talk about these rules. Men's basketball goes out of their way to call hand checking "Impeding the process of a Player." At the same time Women's uses the term "displacement" over and over to describe illegal contact with the ball handler. The games are different and they committees are different. Not sure why you would be surprised that they have different philosophies as to what should be called and why. Maybe this is why both sides have their own officials?

Peace

Raymond

rockyroad wrote
Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

NCAA Apendix III Section 14. Men’s Hand-Checking (Impeding the Progress of a Player)
To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:
a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
b. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
c. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
APPENDIX III OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-167

Points of Emphasis for Women Displacement
2. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO THE BALL HANDLER OR DRIBBLER
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. Incidental contact of the hand shall not be called a foul, however if the arm is straight (no bend in the elbow) or holding, pushing or displacement occurs a foul shall be called. Continual or continuous use of the hand on the ball handler or dribbler is not permitted and a foul shall be called.
b. The arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may not have contact with the ball-handler/dribbler. A defender that has contact with the dribbler with the arm-bar in any way shall be called for a personal foul.
c. Any displacement by either the defense or the offense shall be a foul. Contact resulting in displacement either with the hands or body is a foul.
d. Adribbler may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
e. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching momentarily, however any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

rockyroad

BadNewsRef wrote

NCAA Apendix III Section 14. Men’s Hand-Checking (Impeding the Progress of a Player)
To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:
a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
b. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
c. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
APPENDIX III OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-167

Points of Emphasis for Women Displacement
2. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO THE BALL HANDLER OR DRIBBLER
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. Incidental contact of the hand shall not be called a foul, however if the arm is straight (no bend in the elbow) or holding, pushing or displacement occurs a foul shall be called. Continual or continuous use of the hand on the ball handler or dribbler is not permitted and a foul shall be called.
b. The arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may not have contact with the ball-handler/dribbler. A defender that has contact with the dribbler with the arm-bar in any way shall be called for a personal foul.
c. Any displacement by either the defense or the offense shall be a foul. Contact resulting in displacement either with the hands or body is a foul.
d. Adribbler may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
e. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching momentarily, however any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

So let's see...the Men's rule says "keeps a hand on" but the Women's rule says "continual use of the hand"...Men's rule talks about the "forearm on the opponent" while the Women's rule calls it an arm bar...Men's rule says "continually jabs" while the Women's rule says "continual or continuous use of the hands"...so contrary to what was stated in an earlier post, there is NO difference between the way NCAAM and NCAAW want the handcheck called. The only difference is that in their POE's NCAAW lumped each POE under the overall category of Displacement and so they added wording to the effect that neither the ballhandler nor the defender may displace each other...that does not mean the handcheck rules are different between the two...

Jimgolf

JRutledge wrote
The definition of a double standard is something being applied to two different groups or situations based on the same set of facts. A double standard is also considered unfair. I do not treat a rule that involves the ball handler and a rule that deals with a player without the ball as unfair. I guess you do have the right to your opinion, but not everyone has to agree with that opinion.

Peace

So in essence, your contention is that no double standard exists because you say so.

"A double standard, according to the World Book Dictionary, is a standard applied more leniently to one group than to another."

As in post players vs. ball handlers.

As a wise man once said, "It is interesting that he might think that way, but that does not mean he has a real point either. "

JRutledge

Jimgolf wrote
So in essence, your contention is that no double standard exists because you say so.

"A double standard, according to the World Book Dictionary, is a standard applied more leniently to one group than to another."

As in post players vs. ball handlers.

As a wise man once said, "It is interesting that he might think that way, but that does not mean he has a real point either. "

It says in the dictionary that I have read that a double standard is an "unfair situation." I do not see two different rules cover different aspects of the game as unfair. What is unfair is also a subjective term as well. So if you feel that there is a double standard, then feel there is a double standard. What difference does it make if you disagree with my point of view? I just do not put a lot of stock in some Dad that comes along and makes a comment.

Peace

JRutledge

rockyroad wrote
The only difference is that in their POE's NCAAW lumped each POE under the overall category of Displacement and so they added wording to the effect that neither the ballhandler nor the defender may displace each other...that does not mean the handcheck rules are different between the two...

You are right Rocky, both Men's and Women's officiating philosophies are exactly the same. 😉

Peace

rockyroad

JRutledge wrote
You are right Rocky, both Men's and Women's officiating philosophies are exactly the same. 😉

Peace

you say that the RULES are different for handchecking, then when proven wrong you start saying the PHILOSOPHIES are different

Snake~eyes

rockyroad wrote
Dan, JR, Chuck, Mick, Tony, Juulie, Bob, Jim - the "Ignore" button is now going back on...

You have all those people on ignore? Wow... 😮

😛

JRutledge

SmokeEater wrote
And its statements like that that make some officials look like a$$holes inthe eyes of people who actually know the game.

You don't have to put any stock in what someone else says but if anyone ever disagrees with your point of view then they sure hear about it on these forums.

Perhaps that is why, although I respect your experience and knowledge I really don't put much stock in what you have to say.

You are going to change something you do because some guy came up to you and made a statement in conversation? It is not like this conversation took place at a camp or you the conversation took place with a very experienced coach or official. Billy Packer and Bill Walton have a lot of experience and knowledge in the game too. I do not know if they said something to me I would change my officiating philosophy or try to call the game differently if I had a personal conversation with them.

Peace

JRutledge

Well Rocky, I have worked both Men's and Women's basketball in my career. I have attended NCAA Rules meetings for both genders. I have current officiating friends that are women's officials. I know officials that work D1 on both sides. I have talked to these officials about this and many other subjects. They philosophies are different. The fact that they use different language and bullet points to say what is important tells me they do not view the game the same. Also the President of one of my association constantly talks about Women's college and has shown NCAA tape over the years and they have different philosophies. I even work for a college assignor (I once worked for another guy that also assigned both) that assigns both Men's and Women's basketball and he talks a lot about the differences and he does not put Men's and Women's officials together during camp so the officials will not call the game differently or use different mechanics.

I do not understand your obsession with having to always validate your opinion as law or the only answer.

rockyroad wrote
Dan, JR, Chuck, Mick, Tony, Juulie, Bob, Jim - the "Ignore" button is now going back on...

I do not need a button to tell me who to listen to and not to listen to. I have not worked a single college game with any of these people, nor attended any camp with these people as well. It is sad that people cannot stand up for what they believe in but have to have people on an internet site (who I have never met) back me up.
Peace

rainmaker

Jimgolf wrote
I think that is the definition of a double standard - two different rules depending upon a circumstance.

As far as how the words are used literally, I think you're right. But the way it's officiated this is often the case. I think where the contact occurs does make some difference in a lot of localities, and it also appears to me that it depends on whether the contact is on-ball, or off-ball. Is that a double standard? Well maybe, but in some areas, I'm sure it's the way things are called.

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