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-   -   Jump Ball from behind player (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/26439-jump-ball-behind-player.html)

blindzebra Sat May 13, 2006 09:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
You have two separate issues above. First, everytime down the court you have contact that isn't a foul. Is there something special about this kind of contact that makes it automatic? Please point me to the rule.

Second, "encircling" a player and preventing normal movement is only a foul if the contact itself is what prevents the movement. If A1 has the ball and B1 reaches from behind and grabs it, but in the process B1's chest "touches" A1's back, what foul are you going to call? He didn't push him, just touched. He didn't hold him, or prevent any movement with contact.
If the contact enabled him to reach the ball from a disadvantaged position, it's a foul...PERIOD...it's no different than a hand on the hip that holds a shooter down so that the defender can get extra height to block the shot, or don't you consider that a foul either.:rolleyes:

Adam Sun May 14, 2006 02:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
If the contact enabled him to reach the ball from a disadvantaged position, it's a foul...PERIOD...it's no different than a hand on the hip that holds a shooter down so that the defender can get extra height to block the shot, or don't you consider that a foul either.:rolleyes:
I agree, but it's also no different than minor torso contact on a shot attempt, if the torso contact has no bearing on the block attempt, then it's nothing. It's not a foul just because they touch, unless the contact itself presents an advantage; such as holding or pushing. There's no signal for "touching," because "touching" isn't a foul.

Are you saying that if he gets close enough and makes contact that would go otherwise uncalled, you're going to call it if he is able to reach the ball? If so, I disagree.

blindzebra Sun May 14, 2006 03:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I agree, but it's also no different than minor torso contact on a shot attempt, if the torso contact has no bearing on the block attempt, then it's nothing. It's not a foul just because they touch, unless the contact itself presents an advantage; such as holding or pushing. There's no signal for "touching," because "touching" isn't a foul.

Are you saying that if he gets close enough and makes contact that would go otherwise uncalled, you're going to call it if he is able to reach the ball? If so, I disagree.

I don't think I can say it any clearer than I did.

It depends on where the defender is if that contact is incidental. We aren't talking about two players jumping more or less within their vertical plane, we are talking about a player in a disadvantaged position causing contact that leads to an advantage.

4-27-5 says it all. Contact that allows a tie up in this situation, is gaining an advantage and is a foul.

JRutledge Sun May 14, 2006 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
I don't think I can say it any clearer than I did.

It depends on where the defender is if that contact is incidental. We aren't talking about two players jumping more or less within their vertical plane, we are talking about a player in a disadvantaged position causing contact that leads to an advantage.

4-27-5 says it all. Contact that allows a tie up in this situation, is gaining an advantage and is a foul.
If you believe all contact puts a player at a disadvantage, call a foul. Rule 4-27-5 does say, "No reasonable chance to play the ball...." The rule does not say all contact is a foul. Call what you see and the way you interpret the rules. That is not the way I see it or others that are here. You have to make a decision based on your experience and your philosophy.

Peace

Adam Sun May 14, 2006 03:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
I don't think I can say it any clearer than I did.

It depends on where the defender is if that contact is incidental. We aren't talking about two players jumping more or less within their vertical plane, we are talking about a player in a disadvantaged position causing contact that leads to an advantage.

4-27-5 says it all. Contact that allows a tie up in this situation, is gaining an advantage and is a foul.
While the defender's location is relevant to determine whether the contact is incidental, it's not sufficient. What the contact itself does matters, as well. If he's leaning or pushing (most of the time, this is what happens), it's a foul. If he's just spooning, and he's not leaning or pushing or holding or pulling, then the contact had nothing to do with the result of the play.

Again, contact itself is never a foul. The contact must be of an advantageous nature, not just happening simultaneous with a good defensive play.


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