elbows to the face
 

Been going back-n-forth with couple Laker fans in email today. One of them is a D2 official.

I didn't see the game last night but I heartell that Kobe's elbow made another landing last night (4 stitches to Barbosa's chin). The Laker fans excused the elbow saying the defender was crowding Kobe therefore responsible for the contact.

My question: Is there some sort of space requirement for legal guarding position? If defender is playing extremely tight defense but still maintaining LGP is there some sort of allowance for an offensive player's natural movement to allow contact with the defender.

There was a play in the NIT final where the defender was elbowed in the face and a couple forum members said "too bad" b/c he shouldn't have had his face there. In the play from the NIT final the defender was standing straight up, he wasn't leaning in face first.

It's the same mentality that says you should call every block/charge a block because the defender was "crowding" the offensive player. It's stupid and wrong, but it's the same mentality.

Is, was, and always will be a judgement call.

Incidental contact...I didn't see the play in question, but in most of these cases where it isn't called it's because the elbow wasn't thrown and it really isn't a PC foul, but neither is it a blocking foul - it's simply incidental contact. Looks ugly because the defender ended up bloody, but that's part of the game sometimes...

So, A2 takes a shot, misses, B4 gets the rebound. A4 stays right with B4, who has his back to A4. B4 puts two hands on the ball under his chin, elbows out, and pivots without exerting any extra force beyond what is necessary to make the normal basketball move. A4 catches one in the chin, & goes down. No call?

Probably...if, in my judgement, B4 knew the defender was there and did it on purpose, I'll call a PC foul...if not, I got nothing...

My own personal experience, if a defender is maintaining his space and not poking his face towards the offensive player I call a PC if contact is made with the elbow to the face. I've called a PC 2 times over the last 2 seasons and also one time I had a technical when the contact occured after my whistle for a foul. In each case I didn't deem the contact intentional or flagrant, but I did consider it severe enough that I felt a whistle was warranted (in the case of the technical the movement of the elbow was unnecessary b/c the play had been whistled dead).

I acquired this philosophy from a local D1, Sweet 16-level official who thinks that blows to the face need to be addressed from a game management perspective. He would rather err on the side of calling it too tight rather than risking retaliation later on. (in the case of the NIT final the defender immediately shoved the offensive player down and was rightfully called for an intentional foul)

Just his own personal philosphy which I choose to follow.

And before any one jumps to other extreme "what if" scenarios, I'm talking about the "elbows out, torso twisting" movement when an offensive player has 2 hands on the ball and she/he is being closing contested by a defender.

Players With The Ball,time And Distance Doesn't Apply--but It's A
Judgement Of The Official If The Swinging Of His Elbow Has An Intention To Hurt Or The Player With The Ball Is Out Of His Body
Cylinder.

I follow the same philosophy, BadNews. Just to keep the extra out of the game. If no contact is made, I address it with something verbal as soon as possible, without interrupting the flow of the game.

Ummmmmm. . .

Chuck!!! Be Nice!!!!

LOL
:D

what does ummmmm, mean???? Being the "grammar police" I would think you could be a little more eloquent. ;)

but in that same vane,

ummmmmm, in the case of the technical, the contact wasn't intentional but I deemed the movement of his elbow unnecessary because I had blown my whistle for a foul on the defender. I felt A1's actions were wreckless and the elbow to the face could have been avoided. A1 was moving his elbow in an exxagerated manner during the live-action to bring attention to the fact he was being fouled by the defenders following a rebound. My partner (2-man mechanics) should have called a foul but he didn't so I came in with a whistle. Well after my whistle A1 continued his movement with his elbow and connected to B1's jaw.

My supervisor/assignor/commissioner was in attendance and agreed with my handling of that play.

FED 4-19-1 NOTE, 10-3-8. ;)

Chuck's point was that the rules do <b>NOT</b> allow you call a contact dead-ball technical foul unless the contact <b>IS</b> flagrant or intentional.

NFHS rule 4-19-5(c)- "A technical foul is an intentional or flagrant <b>contact</b> foul while the ball is <b>dead</b>".



Your supervisor/assignor/commisioner doesn't know the rules either.

In a game I was playing once, I had the ball around the three point line towards the side. I had the ball to one side of my body and swung it high and to the other side as I started to drive. I blew by the defender towards the basket. I did a 360 slam over th e next defender...oops back to reality...I did a layup and looked back to see where the defender went...I expected him to be right with me. He was down on the floor where the play started with a huge gash on his brow...several stitches required Apparently, I got him with my elbow. I didn't even realize I touched him more than just a brush.

My boss and I might not always see eye-to-eye on his assignment decisions but he definitely knows the rules. I said he agreed with the way I handled it, I didn't say anything about him saying I followed the letter of the rulebook. I wouldn't take the "T" back. A1's coach gave nothing more than a half-hearted objection about his player not hearing the whistle and the rest of the game was played lot cleaner than it was prior to the technical.

Within the confines of this forum I can admit that I didn't think the contact was intentional, but you can be sure if I had been questioned on the court directly, some sort of paraphrasing of rule 4-19-5 would have spilled from my mouth.

IF the defender does it on purpose how can you only have a personal? Why not an unsportsmanlike?

I rarley see elbows swinged but if I do I call this as personal fouls all times, unless, somebody is doing it on purpose (or perhaps for the second time after a warning) then it's an unsportsmanlike

Elbows swinging in somebodys face can't just be excused, having an elbow at that level is bad no matter what cause you risk hitting somebody, in college you have that excellent violation for swingin elbows, I can't use it scince FIBA don't have it but if an elbow makes contact it is almost evry time a foul, and if you do it on purpose, come on, an unsportsmanlike must be minimum, how can you not penalise an intentional elbow (or call it a personal), the risk for injuries must be high, anyway

elbows- PFoul
intentional elbow - Unsportsmanlike

having players throwing elbows around isn't good, so when I call a game I try to penelise it hard enough for players to stop doing it (besides, they hurt, I know from when I play myself :p)

That's why I love the violation call in NHFS, too. If I think he did it intentionally, I'm going to at least get him with the PC, if not the X. However, intent is not required for me. If the defender has position, and the ball handler's elbow enter's B1's vertical plane and hits him square on the face causing so much as a recoil, I've got PC.

Having played basketball at the high school and college level and now officiating I can honestly tell you guys that players don't throw elbows for no reason. There's always a message being sent when elbows are raised or thrown. Not to say that there aren't inadvertent elbows but in my mind it's very infrequent. Players usually are trying to intimidate or just flat out hurt someone due to frustration. I will always penalize this activity as it has no place on the floor. By the way I've been on the receiving end twice and it wasn't much fun. 12 stitches over the eye and a tooth thru the lip.

Bryant's elbow to Bell occurred in Bell's space, as Bryant was leaping towards the defender to make a cross-court pass to get himself out of trouble (my recollection of the play). I wondered if a player like Bryant, who has a fair number of "incidental elbows", doesn't train himself to make certain moves with elbows extended where the normal motion would not be with any extension. I liked Snaqwells comment:
because then you cover the player who has become good at making the elbows appear incidental.

While it is not legal to swing your elbows, it is legal to pivot with your elbow in a normal position, or in other words to swing your body with your elbows out.

If contact occurs, it is up to the official's judgment whether a foul call is warranted, and on whom.

The discussion was about the offensive player pivoting with elbows out, not cocking his/her arm and throwing the elbow which is a different situation...

See 05-06 NFHS rule 9 sec.13 art. 2

Intentional elbow
 

A1 has the ball at top of key, B1 is closely guarding. For some unknown reason, A1 deliberately elbows B1 with significant contact to B1's head.

Would this bring an intentional? Has anyone called flagrant foul on an elbow? I haven't, but if this happened I may call the flagrant.

Opinions?

Deliberate elbow to the head has to be an ejection in that sitch. Even in the NBA, this would be an "elbow foul" above the shoulders. Bye-bye!!!

bye bye player and hello report writing

DQ (or flagrant if you speak ncaa) and a nice little report to write afterwards