I Need Some Advice
 

Hello All,
I would like to ask some advice from some of the veteran officials on the forum. I have been officiating for 5 years on the High School Varsity level. I have been invited to my first College camp/tryout. I am trying to get an idea about what the assigners will be looking for. What should I work on that would be different from what I do at the High School level. As I know most officials do, I take what I do in my strips seriously. I would really like to make a good impression and hopefully get assigned some games next season. So I would really like to partake of the wisdom of the forum. Any tips or feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

By the way this is a Women’s JUCO Camp.

Every observer is different. They all see different things. So my advice is simply to work your game. Do the things have made you successful so far. Hustle, listen (to coaches and observers), communicate (with coaches and partners), and make good calls. Make sure you look the part -- posture and uniform -- and work hard. What else can you do, really? Good luck.

Chuck,
I am pretty excited about the opportunity, and I plan to make the most of it. thanks for taking the time to reply.

Women's JUCO...hmmm...be tall and be a woman? Sorry I couldn't resist. Chuck said it well. Good luck. I went to my first Juco camps last summer and hopefully soon the contracts will be coming. The hard part for me as a single guy was not hitting on some of the players.

I can be tall, but it’s the other part I am going to have trouble with. lol
thanks Junker.

First Impressions
 

Hustle, Hustle, Hustle when you are on the court.

Good Posture at all times when you are on the court.

Strong, crisp mechanics. Strong voice.

Listen to observers. Don't debate with them. You are not always going to agree with an observer's opinion, but arguing with them will not serve you well. At the most if you don't agree you may ask a question like "What do you think I should have done differently on that play?, listen to the answer, and move on.

Don't be afraid questions but don't ask a million questions.

When not working a game watch another game and listen to the observer's comments but don't interject yourself into that game.

Don't point out other referees' mistakes to observers.

Off-court wardrobe: Khaki-type shorts with golf/polo type shirts; or nice, matching sweat-suits.

Those are some of the things you can control.

The two most important words to memorize and practice before showing up at the camp - "I understand." The two words to never, never, NEVER let slip past your lips - "Yeah, but..."

Follow those two simple pieces of advice and most observers will love you...

It helps if you get some calls right, too. . .

Relax and have fun. You got invited to the tryout because you've showed potential. Just ref your game, work hard and don't be a know-it-all. Do what you did that got ya' the invitation. :)

One more thing: I do know a couple refs who got hammered for referring to players as "ladies." If you need to refer to them, using the term "players" or "number 24" will never get you in trouble.

Z

This just strikes me as dumb and overly PC. They're girls/women. It can't possibly be offensive to refer to them that way, when a respectful term is used. I call the guys "gentlemen" and the girls "ladies".

Yeah, Chuck, I agree with you, but have you seen some of these 'girls/women'?? They ain't quite 'ladies' - nor are they trying to be - if you know what I'm saying. That would be one reason not to refer to them as such.

Reference: Cheryl Swoopes.

The term "ladies" has a connotation of servitude or living up to a certain standard of behavior. It has nothing to do with being PC it is what the term means. Now maybe you will find people that will not care, but many people do.

Peace

Thanks everyone for all your great advice.
Like many of you have said, I am going to go there and just be myself. I will make sure my mechanics are solid and my appearance is good. Keep my eyes and ears open and respect the feed back from the observers.
I just have to avoid putting any unnecessary pressure on myself.
Thanks again every one

I know there are people who are offended by the term 'ladies'. My husband is one of them. I'm not.

My advice would be to take zebraman's advice a little more broadly and try to find out if there are certain things that certain evaluators tend to harp on. If you know someone in your area who works with these people, or has been to camp under them, ask what the PersonalPOE's are for each clinician. You may or may not decide to "play up" to those, but at least you'll know what's coming.

I might add that I've been to several college camps (never even close to getting picked up) and I think the most important thing to do is to stay involved and included in everything. If your face is there within the vision of several clinicians most of the time, you'll be more likely to get picked up next year, if you aren't this year. I'm not speaking from personal experience, but rather from what I've seen with other people.

Also, you might consider choosing a clinician to be your personal mentor for next season, even if you don't get picked up for college. This is a really good way to elevate your high school game, and also to get your name on the clipboard for next year.

I have never, ever, ever in my whole life heard anything like that. Nobody that I've ever heard of has ever used "ladies" to indicate servitude. I agree that "lady" has a connotation of living UP to a certain standard (although not nearly as much today as in generations past), but it has never had a connotation of DOWN. Now, when JR mutters "wimmin", that's a different story.

I think it is a matter of PC-speak, and we'll simply have to disagree on that. But in any event, Juulie's advice is good. If you know ahead of time that a certain evaluator doesn't like certain things, then don't do/say them in front of that evaluator.

I'm with you on this one Chuck. When I address the players as a group I always say "Ladies" or "Gentlemen", that's whether it's 10 year-old kids or the roughest adult rec league. When trying to get the attention of an individual I simply address them by number and jersey color (ie: 13 Blue).

I don't see calling the collection of players "ladies" or "gentlemen" as anything that could be construed as negative.

Now you learned something. When you say "living up to a certain standard," that standard is seen as subservient. Usually when people say act like a lady they are not talking about being outspoken, having goals outside of being a wife and at the behest of men. I know many women that cannot stand that term and would let it be known they do not like that term.

Not sure what this has to do with being PC. I think it has to do with how terms are used to keep people in a certain place (women in this case). You do not have to agree (nor do I expect you to) but that is something you might be confronted by someone when using the term. I am just trying to give you background. Now you know, it is up to you if you choose to use the term or not. ;)

Now the term upset someone in a camp or in an officiating situation. Now you know it is not just me is aware of the history of how the term is perceived.

Peace

This is simply false. When it originated in British society, "Lady" was a term of privilege, not servitude. Ladies employed servants, they weren't servants. Yes, women in general were held in lower regard than men, but that doesn't have anything to do with the term "lady".

Later on, even in American culture, "lady" did not connote servitude. It connoted "proper" (meaning, among other things, sexually proper) behavior. A lady didn't wear pants, for example, or sit astride a horse. It didn't have anything to do with demeaning somebody.

There is simply no case that I have ever heard for construing "lady" as connoting subservience.

Now you have learned something. Maybe. And since this has NOTHING to do with basketball, I will withdraw from the topic.

How would you know?

:cool:

The ONLY time I have heard anyone say anything about calling players "ladies" was from a coach at one of those all-star type team camps. Team was from Houston, and there was a pile-up going for a loose ball right in front of their bench. I blew the whistle, got in there and said loudly "Nice hustle ladies. Everyone come up cleanly now." The coach asked me to not call his players ladies - he said "I don't want them to play like ladies, so please don't call them that."

My response - "Coach, do yoy want them to call me 'Sir?'" When he said "yes" I told him "Then I will be just as respectful to them" and he agreed that was a good approach.

I have never heard any evaluator get on someone for being respectful to players...

Well, that's what I've heard. . .

Don't know the history of the word "ladies" nor do I care. Just noting that I have known of some observers (and even some coaches) that don't like their refs using certain terms like ladies, gentlemen, etc. I don't find it offensive, but they do so I just avoid it.

Instead of figuring out what some find offensive, I have just gotten in the habit of referring to players as "players." If I need to talk to a particular player, I use their number. "Hey 24 white, blah, blah, blah." I can't imagine that I'll ever offend anyone with "player."

Rex-X said it was Women's JUCO he was trying out for so I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents.

I didn't mean to create a firestorm. :rolleyes:

Z

This thread is now living proof that wimmin are nuthin' but trouble.

Told ya so.......

Some advice
 

Are you going to Donnie Gray's camp in DC metro area?

You didn't create it. And I agree with you that it's probably "easier" simply to avoid using the word. I just don't like it as much, that's all.

No, Martin Novitch's camp in Jersey.

Please get back to offering advice to the future camper as he has requested.

Any posts in this thread going forward that attempt to rebut or address this social/race issue will be deleted.

Thanks for your cooperation. Contact me privately if we need to discuss further.

Practical Advice for the camper:

Since most here have mentioned what to do while on the court, I will address what to do off...

Remember that camp is like an interview so show up like it is one. Dress Proffesionally (not necessarily a suit, but nice shirt, slacks maybe a sport coat, dress shoes etc.) No shorts, athletic shirts, hats, sandals, flip flops etc. Always act professionally. Someone is always watching whether you are on the court or not. In other words carry yourself with confidence, don't use profanity, don't talk about other officials whether they are there or not (they don't like gossips)
Listen intently to what the observers are telling you and/or your fellow campers. Leave them alone while they are observing, and don't try to "cozy up to them" or Kiss butt. They see right through that.
Be punctual and have all your paperwork in order for registration. This shows that you are accountable, organized and "handle your business".
Here is another one, don't ask questions that you already know the answers to, to show how much you know. If you have a question, ask it concisely and let them answer, don't interject what you think the answer might be.

Lastly, go to camp with the idea to learn and get better and not necessarily with the sole purpose of getting hired. If you approach it that way, good things will happen.

Now you just have to do what the others said on the court and you should be golden!

I understand the respect of calling female players ladies. I call the players ladies all the time. I am trying to be respectful, not degrading. To stir the pot, calling someone players can denote a negative image. Either way, I always try to be respectful to the players on the court.

Here's what I don't understand...why does *my* thoughtful, intelligent humorous post get deleted and why does THIS example of low-brow Neanderthal thought get to stay? Why?

Anyway...for the OP...one of the best officials I ever knew worked D2 women's ball along with HS ball. He never said "ladies" "guys" "fellas" "gentlemen" or "gals".

Always used the term "players". Why, I asked. Because, he said, you never know what might offend any of these @ssholes.

But don't take my word for it or any of the other so-called experts here. When you show up for camp ask the camp director what *he* prefers.

Because while it was indeed a post, it was neither thoughtful nor intelligent nor humorous.

Well, that's what I heard. . .

Or "she". Oops!

Maybe he left off the trailing "a"?

:rolleyes:

...because the author of that post is the epitome...nay, the absolute zenith...of class, distinction and <i>savoir faire</i>!

So there....
http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/b4.gif

This whole "ladies" discussion is mindblowing to me. :eek: I have been officiating youth ball from age 9 to varsity HS for 10 years. It never once dawned on me that the term "ladies" may be offensive. I honestly can't imagine how it would offend the players, but I'll defer to the veterans here. I know several female HS coaches that I'll approach next season and get their feedback. This topic might be a better thread on it's own.

You think Martin's the only one doing observations there? :confused:

No, when did I say that?

Attention! Mods!

Some hacker with a HS education stole JR's password!

Let's Move On.
 

I have asked once before and stated that I would delete future posts that spurred continued argument (v. debate) over the whole issue of the usage of the word ladies. I have deleted the last two posts.

There are obviously differing opinions here and they have been stated. Please accept that people will not agree on this issue.

The person who started this thread asked for advice on how to improve his chances of having a successful camp experience. There are obviously a lot of people in this forum community that have spent a lot of $$$ and time in a camp environment (myself included). Let's take the time to help lift a fellow "up and coming official" and be productive by sharing our wealth of knowledge and diverse experiences at camp.

Thanks

Good grief...we have such in-depth threads as "which shoes do we all wear?", "which whistle is the best?", etc., etc., but posts on how we should refer to players on the court during a BASKETBALL game have no business on a BASKETBALL discussion board? That's some good thinking right there...

And as to the original poster, there's been some great advice given...here's another piece of advice (don't know that it's very good, but here it is anyway) - have fun and don't expect anything. Just go there with the thought that you are going to have a great time and soak in as much as you can and that way if you get hired, cake! If not, then you still met your expectations - had fun and learned lots.

I am going to have to completely agree with Rocky. What is going to happen if we discuss other issues on this board that deal with social and racial issues? I know I cannot work a single basketball game without the some consideration to social and racial issues. Either people assume I am from a certain place because of what I look like, or the teams have a different break down racially and socially that there is an underlining tension in the game that even comes out in ways many would not be able to handle on the surface. This issue was talked about from a veteran poster that had experiences about using a certain word. I had also never heard of a situation in a basketball game where this was a problem, and I learned something and it makes me wonder now when I go to camps. There might be some fundamental disagreement the validity or the social significance, but to squelch all conversation about it is silly. We are all adults here and should be able to have a constructive conversation. I did not read any name calling or accusing anyone of anything. I simply read debate about the issue and why some decided not to use or continue to use certain language.

I just think this board could have learned more by the discussion rather than terminating any discussion on the issue. I also do not like the fact that you guys pick and choose what is OK and what is not when there are other postst that are only about social and political opinions. If you are going to keep those up, why not this discussion that deals directly with officiating?

Peace

And here's 1 more piece of advice for the OP: if the camp you attend has male players do not, under *any* circumstances, call them ladies.

I'm with JRut on this...
 

This board can be used to further education in many areas, and this topic is a solid one to discuss. I ahve worked with several women officials & coaches doing all levels of ball from Jr High to JUCO, and have never once heard or seen someone react to the word 'ladies' in a negative fashion. In fact, it can be a respectful term. I've heard more coaches address their players in the fashion of "OK, ladies!" when trying to get their attention in the huddle, so why wouldn't I address them as ladies on the court?

As with most words or phrases, it's not the word that is used, but how the word is used.

I have to agree as well....we discuss a lot of stuff here. It has been said before but here it goes again. If someone finds the thread offensive or off topic or uninteresting, then don't read it any further...

So after a few private e-mails back and forth with BBall_Junkie I now understand his point about keeping to the original topic on this thread and apologize for the shot I took at him earlier...

Looks like Rock's gone over to the other side...we'll miss him but we'll keep up the good fight!!

btw, having read some of the idiocy he deleted (excluding my post of course) I understand his point as well.

That is all, ladies.

You mean he's a lady now? That's some pretty persuasive emails! :eek:

Can we start a survey on the topic instead of this thread?

Will you delete posts which contest whether or not "argument" & "debate" are interchangeable terms in this venue??? :o

My advice to the original poster would be that if a member of the camp staff takes issue with the use of the words "ladies" and/or "gentlemen" that you remove those words from your vocabulary for the remainder of the camp. :rolleyes:

<font size = -2>Hmm...are these male or female penguins?</font size>

I have never experienced being told the term "ladies" is offensive. However, if a camp clinician tells me it is, than it is.

I have experienced female coaches telling female players to play "man" defense, though.

Those are the <b>Penguinettes</b> synchronized swimming, diving and dancing team.

Didya happen to notice that they perform topless?:eek:

Hey Lady! Watch where you're driving!!!!
 

Back to the original topic. :D I hope to see at least one of my kids work towards the college level. The original poster had five years of experience and was invited to a college camp; do most of these camps require invitations? I'm aware of camps specifically for HS and camps that touch on both; if this is a camp for JUCO ball and it is invitational - is that unusual? can you not be invited to referee at that level through one of the camps that you register for without an invitation?

Well Camron, you'll never be able to say *that* again.

LOL. It's lasted an hour so far.

Maybe the mods are still at Mass at Our Lady of the Most Sacred Whatever Church.

How about.... <i>"line up and don't move, ladies. Pretend you're married."</i>?