In a previous post, Mark Padgett used the word "guys" and then commented to me that the word is now gender-neutral. So I'll make you folks a deal, and I'm wondering if other women on the board will join me in signing at the bottom. (Rebecca, where are you? Lori, are you behind this?)

I, basic average woman, will agree to spend the next five years learning to hear the word "guys" as gender-neutral, if all you, enlightened men of the ref world, will agree to spend the same span of time learning to use other vocabulary that is more historically gender-neutral. This will be an advantage to me, since my feelings will be hurt less often, and an advantage to you men refs since you will separate yourself from all those unenlightened cretins who still club women and drag them back to the caves.

Signed,

juulie downs

Please list a few words from "other vocabulary that is more historically gender-neutral," for our consideration. ;)

Basic average woman? Sounds like a Rome gloss.


To which other gender inequal vocab do you refer Jules?

jewel,
Whatever you said works for me.
You've got me way to skeered to comment.
Udaman! ;)
mick

I'm guessing that "unenlightened cretins" would *not* be
gender neutral. ;)

I'm not from Crete, so I know who she's not referring to me! :)

mick! You were supposed to say, "You go girl!!" :D

Hmmmm.
 

Tony,
Maybe, Jewel won't notice. Ya, think?
mick

Re: Hmmmm.
 

JUULES, DID YOU SEE WHAT mick WROTE ABOVE??!! :D

Re: Re: Hmmmm.
 

Quit tellin'! I'll give you 1/2 my candy bar!

Gender-neutral vocabulary for general use:

Folks
People (the youth pastor of our church uses this a lot)
Ladies and Gentlemen (for formal use)
Fellow Refs
Anyone else... (near the beginning of a question)
Friends (used by Quakers, especially)
Unenlightened Cretins

Mick--

I'm not quite sure why you're "skeered". I'm not attacking anyone, nor am I trying to be a victim. Mark expressed a desire to be seen as talking gender-neutrally, and I'm trying to help him in that direction. What I'm saying is that if we are all going to get along, we all need to work at it -- if y'all will try, I'll try too.

juulie

How 'bout these?

Gender neutral terms for the coach:
Jerk
Moron
Hotheaded ignoramous
A**hole

Gender neutral terms for the players:
Whiner
Crybaby
Pampered primadonna
Undertalented wannabe

Gender neutral terms for the fans:
Ignorant loudmouth (hmm, could be a coach too)
Raving lunatic
Unenlightened Cretins

Jewel,
I didn't figger you were rippin', but whenever a woman "looks at me with that tone of voice", the only sound I can make is "Gulp!"
Almost 31 years..., I know how to swallow. ;)
mick

When I first started coaching girls, I always asked what I should call man-to-man defense. The girls thought person-to-person, player-to-player, girl-to-girl didn't sound right and wanted me to stay with man-to-man. However, I will try these gender-neutral terms and I'll let you know if we switch our man-to-man defense to:

folk-to-folk

people-to-people

lady-to-lady

fellow-to-fellow

anyone else-to-anyone else
(this one sound familiar... Please just guard anyone!)

friend-to-friend

Unenlightened Cretin-to-Unenlightened Cretin

Why is it that we have to try so hard not to offend anyone? Too many people, IMO, are just waiting to be offended so they can cry foul everyone. I honestly believe that the terms we use such as "guys", "man-to-man", "3-man mechanics", etc. should not be offensive to anyone. We all understand what is being said and to whom it is directed. As adults, I believe we should be able to get past all of this, without the silly discussion about offending others.

Can we stick to refereeing?

It's maybe only "silly" to you because you haven't spent your entire life fighting an uphill battle (especially in the field of officiating) just becuase of the way you look. sometimes it's better to think about what it's really like to be someone else; to try to understand something about that person before you make statements like the one above.

Hey refs, I'm on the rag this week too but I don't care what you call me as long as its not late for supper. :)

These are cute, Gary!

Seriously, though, how about one-to-one?

Stripes -- I don't think it's a matter of looking to be offended, at least not for me. But it's hard not to be when I go to use the restroom in a highschool here and the two doors are labeled "Men" and "Girls". What in the world am I supposed to think?' All the males are adults, and all the females aren't? If I regard myself as a mature adult, and I do, where do I go to the bathroom? Is there another set of bathrooms somewhere in this school where the doors are labeled "Women" and "Boys"? 90% of men that I talk to about this, don't think it's any big deal, but 90% of women do. SO who's right?

And it is a refereeing issue when coaches don't respect me mrerely because of that one X chromosome which I have one more of than they do. Is this like penis envy, only in reverse?

It is a refereeing issue when women players prefer women refs, but can't get enough of them because the local associations are intimidating to women, or because women don't feel that they can handle the macho stuff.

I'm not a big feminist wymyn-only type of gal, and I understand that most men are not misogynists. So that's why I wrote up that little agreement at the top of the discussion -- I'll agree to be less touchy, if you'll be more sensitive. Get it?

piece of advice
 

Juulie,

By know means am I the greatest, most experienced or sharpest referee on the block, but I have been around a bit so I feel like I can give advice to a fellow ref.

We all have obstacles. Too thin, too fat, slow, ugly, etc. The list goes forever. The goal is to overcome them. Be the best YOU can be with what you have. My advice to you is to be remembered for something positive. A great hustler. Sharp mechanics. Prompt. Wants to work the tough game. Even though I support your point about the female ref thing, that's not what you want to be remembered for.

Picture this conversation between two of your peers...

Bob-Who are you working with tonight?
Joe-Juulie.
Bob-Isn't she the woman that put up the stink about being called a guy?
Joe-Yep.
Bob-Have a good time. *smirk*

Right or wrong, these things happen. People love to dwell on the negative. The trick is, don't give them a negative to dwell on.

I'm not chick-bashing here. Just adding my two cents to a touchy subject.

Re: piece of advice
 

I would never have said a word about any of this if Mark had not said he was trying to be gender-neutral (his words, not mine). I'm saying fewer people would need to have this as a problem between them as partners in bball, as friends, as spouses, as co-workers, if we all would make some effort toward the middle. Why does that stink?

The idea doesn't stink. I agree with it. "Put up a stink" is just a figure of speech.

I know a women's college ref (a man) who always
uses the term "players". "Line up players"
"OK players, ball's coming in" "Players, watch the hands
inside", stuff like that. Never guys, gals, men,
women, ladies, just players. That seems to work.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I am not saying to be insensitive as a speaker/writer, I am saying don't be so quickly offended--probably none was intended--and if it was, the speaker/writer will generally make it clear as things go on. I try to empathize with others, but do we all need to walk on eggshells to do it?

Juulie--I honestly believe that men have done great injustices to women throughout the years and they were wrong to do it. (Your restroom example is right on the money.) Should we be offended at this, probably, but we should definitely try to change it. Should we be offended when a referee calls players "guys"? I don't think it is a big deal because the referee is only using a generic term to refer to the players ("players" is a better term) and is not trying to offend anyone. As for respect, I don't know how to help you with that one other than to say that your refereeing will speak loudest. If you demand their respect and can back it up, you will get it.

Ok, by me.

I am not offended when someone says "guys" -- else there are a lot of restaurants I wouldn't eat in. I only responded to the word because Mark Padgett noted that he was trying to be gender neutral, and I was suggesting that "guys" is not dependably seen as neutral. I wouldn't have even mentioned it if Mark and I had not discussed it before, but he and I each know where each stands on this subject, and so I wasn't afraid of offending him.

I must say that there are very few refs that I have had a problem with (Mark included), and many coaches that don't have a problem with my gender. Boys are usually a little uncertain what to think at first but usually adjust quickly. But the few that do make an issue of it are loud enough that sometimes it just feels overwhelming -- one reason (not the only one) there ar so few women refs.

This board has been very hospitable to me, and I have appreciated it. I hope all of us will keep working to make this a safe place for expressions of opinion, and of personal reaction.