Airborne Fumble - Rule question.
 

A1 is dribbling in A's frontcourt. A1 picks up his/her dribble and jumps off the ground in an attempt to release the ball for a jumpshot. A1 fumbles the ball while airborne (it slips out of his/her hand), and recovers the ball in (a) before he/she returns to the ground (b) after he/she returns to the ground and (c) after he/she returns to the ground and the ball bounces on the ground once.

Has A1 violated? And if not, what can A1 do now?

Please quote any rules and rule numbers/case numbers.

Thanks.

Unless the ball was touched by another player during the fumble, the correct call is a travel in the first case and an illegal second dribble in the next 2 cases. Rule 4-44-3(b) and rule 9-5.

I disagree with JR. I believe that the action in all three plays is legal. The player FUMBLED the ball and therefore was not in control, thus couldn't travel.

RULE 4, SECTION 21 FUMBLE
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.

RULE 4, SECTION 44 TRAVELING
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:...

If the player is not holding the ball, then the rest of this rule is not applicable.


If the player intentionally dropped the ball, as opposed to fumbling it (which is by definition accidental), then that would be traveling per 4-44-3c.

Sorry, forgot your second part:
A1 can do anything except dribble again. That would be a double dribble violation.

Fumble, dribble, fumble is okay.
Dribble, fumble, dribble is a violation.

[QUOTE=Nevadaref]I disagree with JR. I believe that the action in all three plays is legal. The player FUMBLED the ball and therefore was not in control, thus couldn't travel.

[QUOTE]Nevada, did you read the original post? Maybe you should go back and re-read it. You know better than that. The player fumbled the ball <b>after</b> he became an airborne shooter.

A1 picked up the dribble. A1 then jumped to shoot. While airborne, A1 fumbled the ball. A1 recovered the fumble without any other player touching the ball. A1 then came back down . If A1 came back down with the ball, it's a travel as per the rule that I cited. If A1 drops the ball after the fumble and then is the first to touch it after he comes down, then that's an illegal second dribble. None of the plays are legal.

So you can only recover your own fumble if you fumbled with your feet on the ground? :confused:

Who said anything about that?

A player who has left his feet with player control to shoot then fumbles the ball while airborne, recovers that fumble while still airborne, and then comes back down with player control <b>without</b> shooting or passing the ball? Are you saying that isn't traveling?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

The key is that player control was lost. Whether the player is airborne or not when that happens doesn't matter. There is no traveling violation.

4-44-3b is written such that the player has control the whole time. I don't think that it applies here.

Lastly, a fumble is not a dribble, so the play in which the ball is recovered after the player comes back down and the ball hit the floor is certainly not a travel.

Nevada, I ain't gonna change your mind obviously. May I suggest that you take this one to your state interpreter. You're wrong.

Gotta go with Nevada on this one. A fumble, by definition, is not a dribble. Therefore, it can't be an illegal dribble. Also, the travel rule JR referred to is releasing the ball on a dribble after lifting the pivot foot. Again, it is not a dribble...therefore not a travel. A fumbled ball (judgement of official) can always be picked up.

(a) Traveling. It makes no difference what happens while he's airborne. He had PC when he left the floor and he had PC when he landed. That's traveling.

(b) & (c) Legal.

I agree with Nevada on this but BBallref has a good point on A although if I am on the floor I think I would deem it legal. Anytime I see a fumble I automatically think "Get it, but don't dribble"

So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? ;)

This is exactly the same sequence of events...PC...PC lost...PC. The fact that one is a shot and the other isn't has no impact. The element that makes the rebound legal is the loss of PC. It doesn't distinguish how it is lost.

Camron, I don't think that the "PC lost" part is the same for a fumble as for a shot. With a shot, there's PC, then no PC, then the same person can catch the ball and dribble again. Not so on a fumble. So I don't see how they can be the same sequence of events. Or are you saying the fumble in this case is really a shot, so the fumbling aspects don't matter?

Hmm ....
who is correct..

[QUOTE=Camron Rust]So, you're saying it's a travel to shoot the ball and catch the "rebound" before you land from the original shot? QUOTE]You can legally shoot the ball or pass the ball while you're up there, as per R4-44-3(b). The rule doesn't mention fumbling and recovering that fumble. As TH said, he went up with player control and came down with player control....and no other player touched the ball while he was up there.

Make that legal and you're gonna see a heckuva lot of deliberate fumbles when a shooter sees a defender's big hand(s) over top of him when he's up in the air.

Well, if they are deliberate, then they are not fumbles.
 

Well, if they are deliberate, then they are not fumbles.

That's like saying, 'you will see alot of deliberate airball shots being passed to one's self'. It's judgement. :cool:

C'mon Camron, you're smarter than that. What a foolish suggestion.

4-43-3b clearly states that when an airborne player leaves the floor, the ball MUST be released on a shot or pass before he returns to the floor. If he jumps, fumbles, and returns the floor with the ball, he didn't shoot it or pass it, did it? No, I didn't think so, unless you've changed the definition of a try or a pass.

I'm still waiting for our resident IAABO rules interpreter to weigh in with his learned opinion. For some reason, he seems to be avoiding telling us what his take on this one is.

You there, Chuckster? :)

And as I posted much earlier in this thread that rule isn't applicable because it comes under the heading which includes "while holding the ball." The rule you are citing definitely governs the play in which the player is holding the ball the entire time. However, it is not clear that it is controlling for this scenario in which PC is lost with a fumble in mid-air.
I'm adding this to my gray area list of NFHS rules.

I'm not saying a fumble is a shot. Just that there is no real significance of it being a shot aside from the loss of player control. The manner in which player control is lost is not relevant...just that it is. To travel, you must have continuous player control (holding the ball).

Ok, I know this is an old thread but I was talking to Nevada about it just this morning, and it reminded me that there was a ruling on this printed in this year's NCAA men's basketball officiating program. I'll just type it out and you can hash out whether we should apply it to our high school games.

I added the emphasis in the ruling, b/c that's what we had been discussing. The rationale is clearly what Camron had argued earlier (and I hinted at). You're always allowed to recover a fumble. And since a fumble means loss of player control, it's ok to recover in the air and then land.

Now, should we use this in high school games? I don't see why not. The principle is the same in FED rules. No control, no travel. Hope that's interesting to somebody.

I thought you left?

And I don't see why.

I though that you were gonna try and get a FED ruling on this.

Based on my understanding of the three play scenarios, A1 the dribbler can legally gain possession of the ball, (s)he can not move either foot once (s)he lands on the floor or while re-controlling the ball after landing on the floor.
(S)He can shoot, pass it to a team mate or call a TO and or hold the ball with a potential closely guarded count.

A1 muffed and or fumbled the ball.


Also, take a look at NCAA BR-82, A.R. 82. It states that once A1 returns to the floor, (s)he cannot dribble the ball again.

So you going to grant a timeout during a fumble?;)

PC is PC, it's either there or isn't...by rule it is lost on a try and on a fumble.

Okay, then why is it okay to retrieve a shot and dribble again, but it's not okay to retreive a fumble and dribble again? They're obviously not the same. I'm not going to grant a timeout in either one, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Because a try is a permanent loss of PC, a fumble is a momentary loss of PC.

A try is a purposeful loss of PC, a fumble is an accidental loss of PC.

Maybe you don't care but unless I misunderstand what you're saying the ncaa doesn't agree with you.

Yes you misunderstood...I was asked what was different between a try and a fumble that would mean A1 could dribble after the try but not dribble after a fumble.

Nothing in that case play disagrees with anything I said, the NCAA ruling is it is a violation if A1 fumbles THEN DRIBBLES after A1 recovers.

Frankly I'm not sure what you're saying which is why I qualified my original statement. In any event the ncaa is not saying the player cannot recover & dribble again. They are saying the player can recover and dribble if he hasn't already given up his dribble.

When the Fed tells me that it's legal for A1 to jump, fumble the ball, regain possession, and then land, I'll ignore it. Until then, I've got traveling.

[quote=Dan_ref]Frankly I'm not sure what you're saying which is why I qualified my original statement. In any event the ncaa is not saying the player cannot recover & dribble again. They are saying the player can recover and dribble if he hasn't already given up his dribble.[/quote

That is exactly what the NCAA is saying, Dan. The player MAY recover the ball, but he MAY NOT dribble AGAIN. A first dribble is okay, but not a second even if it comes after a fumble. It right there in the AR you cited.


A.R. 82. After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball. A1 (a) recovers the fumble while airborne, or (b) recovers the fumble after returning to the floor. A1 dribbles the ball. The official calls a violation. Is the official correct? RULING: Yes. In (a) and (b) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball, A1 started a second dribble. However, if a fumble is touched by another player and then recovered by A1, while airborne or after a return to the floor, A1 is allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball (while airborne or after a return to the floor), he is permitted to start a dribble.

[QUOTE=Nevadaref]Ahhh...I see what you're saying. My wording was a bit sloppy, I should have stated it as corrected above. My fault for being unclear.

The bottom line is (and I'm not sure who's on what side of this argument btw) is that according to the ncaa an airborne player can fumble the ball (ie not shoot the ball) and legally recover it either in the air or on the floor. Period. Whether he can dribbble at all at that point depends simply on whether he gave up his dribble prior to going airborne. He cannot dribble again.

I don't believe there is such a case play in the nfhs book.

Ok, I realize that this thread is two years old, but Nevada just linked to it a few days ago. Just by coincidence, I got an email from a member of the FED rules committee. He took some case plays that I sent to him and asked Mary about them.

Mary's answer is that the fumble causes a loss of player control and the player may recover the fumble in midair and land with no violation.

I know that not everyone is enamored with Mary's rulings in the past, but at least this is a definitive answer from somebody at the FED.

Sorry, Tony. :D

Ok, now Dan can insert his comments about me not being here anymore. :)

Holy Macaroni and Cheese Batman!!!
 

I just noticed my thread came back to life. Wow.

Thanks guys. I appreciate the enthusiasm and dedication of you all.

I have been waiting for this answer for 2 years now. I can finally get back to the coach who asked me about it. And since I now know everything there is to know, I QUIT.

My fellow officials, I will see you all in heaven, since we have all seen our share of hell.

Adios Amigos.

;)