The magic number
 

I know many don't like the NBA, but this came up in a Pro-Am meeting last night.

What should the shot clock normally (out of bounds after made basket) say to call a violation?

1. NCAA - 25
2. NCAA - 24

*According to the rule, the NBA should be called differently besides the fact that the shot clock is different.

Using the shot clock to gauge backcourt is a bad idea for a number or reasons. However it depends on the clock. If the clock ticks down at x.9, the first tick from 35 to 34 happens at .1 seconds. When the clock showed 25 there could be 25.9 seconds left.

If the click ticks at x.0, the first tick happens at 1 second. In this case 34.5 would read 35 still. At 25 there could be 24 to 24.99 seconds left in this case.

Locally we had the same discussion with the new reset rule on a kicked ball. One opnion was that if the shot clock read 15 we were to instruct the clock operator to reset it to 15 seconds. However this could be a bad idea due to the reasons outlined above. Hope my math makes sense to everybody.

I am in agreement with you that the shot-clock should be 24 for NCAA men & 15 for NBA.

3. None of the above. The official's count is the count that matters.

I choose #3.

But, the shot clock is set up differently than game clocks. The horn goes off the same moment the shot clock shows 0. There is no delay like with a game clock that shows :00 but doesn't show tenths. So, while the shot clock is showing 1, it's actually at .9, .8, .7, etc. When it shows 35, it could be 34.9, 34.8, etc. That's why the rule says on a re-set on a kicked ball, reset it to 15 even if it says 15, because it's actually at 14.9, 14.8, 14.1, etc.

So, if you were to use the shot clock as an indicator of a 10-sec. violation, the violation occurs when the clock shows 25.

35 = 0 sec.
34 = 1 sec.
33 = 2 sec.
.
.
25 = 10 sec.

I don't see why this is an issue 1 way or the other. The rule tells us exactly what to do:

2-14-6f:
When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 15 seconds or less
remaining, reset to 15 seconds.

Right, and the reason the rule is written that way is because the shot clock (all shot clocks, afaik) work the way M&M said -- the "actual time" is equal to or fractions less than the time shown.

So, if the shot clock is used for BC violations, call it when the clock hits 25.

Oops, I didn't see M&Ms post before I posted mine. I agree 118% with him.

i was going to say the same thing....if you notice the shot clock when it is reset, it doesn't change for one second....if it changed from 35 to 34 in 1 tenth then you would say 10 seconds would be 24.99....... but since it doesn't change from 35 to 34 for a whole second you can tell that they run differently than the game clocks.....so the 10 or 8 seconds will be actual time shown....25 ncaa and 16 for nba... thanks m&m for the explanation..i agree totally

The NBA has different wording than the NCAA.

Under violations the NCAA says something like, "...10 consecutive seconds..." and the NBA says, "...more than 8 seconds..." IMO, that means the NBA violation would read, "...9 consecutive seconds..." if written the same as the NCAA. What do you guys think?

Tom, I think'you're right.

Just because I'm feelin' picky today, but:

"More than 8 seconds" is not the same thing as "9 consecutive seconds". More than 8 means 8.1 seconds. And, 9 is greater than 8.1, by almost a full second. ;)

I don't follow enough of the NBA rules, but are there other instances where they use this type of language? Granted, in reality, it's probably the same thing. But I'm just wondering why they chose that specific wording.

Gawd, does this mean I'm turning into a NevadaRef? :eek:

Well, more than 8 actually comes a heck of a lot sooner than 8.1. But the timer they use does not recognize that anything between 8 & 9 exists, it justs recognizes 8 seconds and then jumps all the way to 9 seconds.
No, we like him a heck of a lot more. (hmmm...maybe time for a new poll...?)

:p

So I guess it would be, "...8.1 consecutive seconds..." OR "...8.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000001 consecutive seconds..."

Now that clears up any possible misunderstanding! :D

I like the :rolleyes: :D :) more with the new system. They are different aren't they? :D

I think it's 8.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000005 consecutive seconds myself...

:D

When is it 10 seconds (clock at 25 or 24)
 

Did we ever come up the definitive interpretion for the 10-second count? Thought I'd ask since it came up in NC game.

I think this is pretty silly, to be honest. 35-10=25. When you see 25, it means that 10 seconds have elapsed. If you want to allow an extra tick just in case the clock didn't start exactly correctly, fine.

Chuck, if the shot clock operation was similar to the game clock, would this still be silly? If the wording was similar to the NBA would this still be silly? If this has helped one person never forget this microscopic tidbit, is it silly?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

If 35 minus 10 didn't equal 25, then it wouldn't be silly.

OK Chuck, whatever you say.

what have you done in the past?
 

For folks who officiate "shot clock" games:

What have you done in the past? I've only had one JuCo game where it became a real issue. (3-man) In the 1st half I'm new trail following VISITING team up the court. As they are bringing the ball up I notice shot clock is ahead of my count. They cross division with my count at 5 seconds and shot clock at 27 seconds. I whistle play dead and have shot clock set to 30 seconds for VISITING team. (no protests from either coach). 2nd half, VISITING team is down by about 8-10 points with 3-4 minutes left. VISITING team scores, i'm New Trail. VISITING team is pressing of course and I don't get a chance to look at shot clock. HOME team crosses division line with my count at 9 seconds and almost simultaneously I have a blocking foul. I look up and see shot clock at 22 seconds. VISITING coach is having a fit b/c he says it should be a 10 second violation. After I report the foul I tell him that 10-second violations go by my count, not the shot clock and I end the conversation (I resist the urge to remind him about the sitch in 1st half that benefitted his team).

So I ask again, what have you done in the past in situations where shot clock doesn't match your count???

Your count isn't matching the shot clock. Check the shot clock, if you can, and be aware of it. All this talk about your (the official's) count being what matters and this being a silly discussion is BS in the world I officiate in. If that clock read 22, down from 35, when the foul was called, you are in the soup! The team violated and now you have to explain why your count is three seconds (more actually since you didn't have a violation) slower than the shot clock.

Chances are higher that your count is too slow rather than the clock being wrong by 3 seconds.

I've observed official after official on the floor and I don't think I've ever seen one faster than the clock and an overwhelming majority are substantially slow. There is a substantial number that are almost 2x off. Most are off by at least 50%. THe best are typically 20-30% slow with an occassional official who is right on the mark.

Yet, I've heard other officials tell them they are counting too fast. What is being miscommunicated is not that the tempo of the count is too fast but that the arm movement is to extreme and makes it look too fast.

(remember this is a JuCo, not a D1 or NBA game, so we are not working with professional shot-clock operators) In this particular game the shot clock operator was occassionally starting the clock too early , like after a basket when the ball was at the disposal of the in-bounder. That accounted for the extra seconds clicking off the shot clock. You think the VISITING coach would have preferred one of us had killed the play while he was pressing, set the shot clock to the proper time, then gave the HOME team a new 10-second count?

I'm not asking what you would do in a perfect world, I'm asking what have you done in the past or what you would do in the future. And in your opinion, what should the ruling have been on the play last night when the shot clock read 25 seconds and Cahill granted the time out to the Gators.

The violation should occur when the clock says 25.

I think all shot clocks work the same: they remain on 35 until 1 second has elapsed...the horn buzzes as soon as it reads 0 (not 0.9999 seconds later).

When the clock shows 35, between 0 and 1 second has elapsed.
When it shows 34, between 1 and 2 seconds have elapsed.
Taking this down to 25, between 10 and 11 seconds have elapsed.

35 => 0 - 1
34 => 1 - 2
33 => 2 - 3
32 => 3 - 4
31 => 4 - 5
30 => 5 - 6
29 => 6 - 7
28 => 7 - 8
27 => 8 - 9
26 => 9 - 10
25 => 10 - 11
24 => 11 - 12

Therefore, if you wait until it says 24, you give them at least 11 seconds and, depending on your reaction time, up to 12 seconds.

If the clock is starting early as you say, it was a problem before the throwin was completed. Yes...stop the game, fix it, and restart the play. There will be no complaint if you do it then. If you know that it was already down to 32 when the throwin was still in progress, you should fix it right then, not wait until it gets close to an apparent violation and address it. That will only cause problems...either from saving a team from a tough situation or from allowing a team too much time.

Did anyone notice that last night the shot clock got to 25 when Florida had the ball and there was no 10 second violation called? Parker and Nance both commented on it. Jim Burr was the person that made the call originally that sparked this conversation and I believe he was in the C position.

Peace

Tom, I don't think using the shot clock properly is silly. I think all the agony over 24 or 25 is silly. It's obvious that when the shot clock says 25, that 10 seconds have elapsed. All this hand-wringing about well, does it go to 34 right away or does it wait a second, is pointless. When it says 25, that's 10. We have much more important things to worry about.

Cam, I might concede this except for the fact that one of things I do when ref'n some of the more boring and actionless Rec League games, or little kids games that have no pressing, is test my count against the clock throughout the game. Sometimes I'll look at the clock the entire time to see if I'm in sync, other times I'll look at the clock when I start my count then look back after 5-7 seconds and see if I'm still in tune with the clock.

In the game I was referring to we were having problems with the shot clock throughout the night. I'm thinking my count was on point and it was the part-time shot-clock operator who was starting the clock too fast.

You are right, we do have much more to worry about. I will make sure to point that out when someone makes an obvious thread that I feel should be obvious. Sure, it is only a second, but it could make a difference. I didn't pay much attention to the exact wording until I noticed the different wording with the pro rule.
What if everyone commented about something on this board they thought was/is silly?

Tom, if you feel it's a big deal, then knock yourself out. I didn't mean to touch a nerve. The answer just seems obvious to me and the angst about the question seems unnecessary. If you disagree, I'm not going to disparage you.

It isn't a big deal. I don't understand your desire to call this thread silly considering other threads on the board. This is silly but:

"shut up"

"you shut up"

"no, you shut up"

isn't silly? At least when those types of posts happen, you don't call them silly.

Got it! :rolleyes:

Ah, got it. But those posts are supposed to be silly. That's the point. The posts in this thread agonizing over how long it takes for the clock to go from 35 to 34 are serious. That's the only difference.

Chuck, I know you think that too much is being made of the subject, but this exact situation did occur in the National Chamipionship game. Ball in BC, fumble or loose ball of some type but no loss of team control, offensive player secures player control in BC, 25 seconds on the shot clock, FF official grants T-O. Ben Howlin wanted a 10-second violation. He was still making a fuss after the T-O and Tony Greene had to address him one more time before the subsequent throw-in.

I'm not interested in the whole "did .00005 click off the clock" discussion. I'm interested in the "25 second shows on the shot clock but there is no 10-second violation" scenario such as last night.

I'm of the opinion that my 10-second count determines the violation. Others believe that "25 seconds on the shot clock" indicates you should have a violation.

The fact is, IMHO, that both opinions are valid. By rule, your 10-second count determines the violation. And if the clock never starts, then your 10-second count is considered "definite knowledge" of how much time should be taken off the clock.

The other fact is that if you know the shot clock started correctly and team control was established immediately at the first touch, then when the shot clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed, regardless of where your count is. In that situation, I believe (if you are aware of the shot clock) that you call the violation based on the clock.

There will be times when you know that the clock did not start properly. For example, after a made basket the ball is inbounded and you look up and see the clock already at 33. Obviously, the timer started the clock before it was inbounded. You can fix it or not (that's a different argument); but in that game, I would use my count exclusively since I know I can't rely on the timer.

So you are absolutely correct that your count is the determining factor by rule. But I think it is simply common sense to use the shot clock if you know that it is operating correctly.

Thanks for your explanation...I had never really thought about it in those terms.

So if someone else talks about it, it is silly. But, if Chuck gives detailed VALID information...

GOT IT!

Let's kill two birds with one stone and submit a new rule for 2006-2007:

ALL shot clocks MUST display the tenths of a second (i.e. 35.0, 34.9, 34.8, etc) AND the 10-sec violation will be called when a full :10 have elapsed as determined by the shot clock.

Now there will be no argument from any coaches, players, or officials that when the shot clock shows 25.5 remaining, everyone will know that only 9.5 seconds have elapsed (and therefore NO violation has occurred).

I hope everyone feels better now. Just like I tell my kids - "there's a solution to every problem"...:)

But when it shows 25.0, does that mean that it's less than 25.1 but hasn't hit 25 yet? Maybe we should wait till it gets to 24.9.

Now you got it.

So we should watch the clock instead of the play?:eek:
I just think that is a can of worms, as there is never perfect harmony with the chopping of time and the start of the clock.

This is great. Argue about it enough and it will be second nature in a game.

I defy you to call a 10-second violation with 26 left on the shot clock because "your count" was at 10. A good dose of common sense goes a long way on this one.

The shot clock is 35 seconds - that is, 35.0. Thus, when the clock starts it immediately goes to 34 and remains on 34 for the entire duration of 34.9-34.0.

Thus, when the clock shows 25 seconds it could be anywhere from 25.0-25.9. Only in the case of the clock being exactly at 25.0 would there technically be a shot clock violation.

Thus, 9 times out of 10 (25.9 through 25.1) there has NOT been a violation (you could actually argue 99 out of 100 if you wanted to include hundreths - but let's keep it simple). So you have a 10% chance that the 25 showing on the clock is exactly 10 seconds and a violation has occurred.

Thus, there is a 90% chance that there has not been a violation.

I'd go all-in with those odds.

If this were true, then the clock would show 0 for a whole second before the horn sounded. It doesn't do that. It hits 0 and the horn sounds simultaneously. That's because when the clock reads 0, it is 0. Not 0.9.

When the clock shows 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. Why is this so hard to accept? :confused:

Not true. I had a game where the clock showed zero and the horn had not gone off after the ball went out of bounds. We went to the scorer's table and the panel (box) at the scorer's table showed 0.3 (the panel had tenths but the clock did not). The game was not over so we administered the throw-in and we played til' the horn went off.

Z

Shot clocks do not operate this way. The shot clock horn sounds when the 0 is displayed.

It is possible to watch both, usually.

That is a good point Chuck ... although somehow that still doesn't seem right. OK... Now you have me doubting my answer... I will do some more research on this. :)

We already look/glance at several different things during a play. This is not that difficult a task to accomplish with a tremendously high degree of accuracy.

I'll call. What'ya got? ;)

I guess the point I was trying to make with my statement you quoted, was the fact that my count <B>does</B> matter, and it may not agree with the shot clock and/or game clock. I guess my feelings come from working mostly JUCO and D3, where the tables aren't necessarily the greatest. In fact, there was one D3 game last year where our crew had to stop play and correct either the shot clock or game clock <B>nine</B> different times during the course of the game. So I have learned to not fully trust clocks and their operators. What if the table is busy eating popcorn and doesn't start the shot clock right away, like say, for 2 sec.? If you have your count, you could very well be at 10 on your count, while the shot clock could show 26 or 27. Your explanation to the coach is simple - apparently the clock didn't start right away, but I had definite knowledge from my count.

Let's look at a HS situation: say there's 12 sec. left in the quarter, and A has the ball for a throw-in in their back court. The throw-in gets tipped by B, the clock starts, A finally tracks the ball down and starts slowly up court, and the horn goes off while A is still in the back court. Obviously B's coach will argue there was a violation because 12 sec. ran off the clock while A was in the backcourt, so they should get the ball with 2 sec. put back on the clock. But you know your count was only at 9, because the count didn't start until A had posession, not when the clock started 3 seconds earlier.

I've always felt it's dangerous to rely on the clock for your counts, both because operators can be unreliable, and different rule sets determine different starting points on game clocks, shot clocks, and counts. Maybe at the higher levels, the clock operators are more accurate and reliable, and you can use them as a reference. But I'm not going to rely upon the clock as the sole basis for making my call.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, my experience with shot clocks is that the horn goes off the moment it hits 0, and doesn't change to 34 (or, in my case, to 29) until a second after it's turned on. So, even though it says 35, it could be 34.9, 34.5, or 34.1. It changes to 34 at 34.0. So 10 seconds has elapsed when it shows 25 (or in NCAAW, 20). That's different than game clocks that don't show 10th's, because the clock immediately clicks down to the next number when it's turned on, and shows 0 for a full second before the horn goes off.

I agree with M&M on this one. I do not trust the shot clock operators. Also why would you do this with only a shot clock? Anyone can count the game clock and come to a similar conclusion. This is why your count should be close to real time as possible. All you need to do is practice and you can be very close if not right on with your counts.

Peace

We didn't have to correct it 9 times, but at one Juco game I did, I had to correct the game clock 3 seconds into the game. Yes, 3 seconds. Ball tossed, tapped legally and bounces OOB. Clock never stopped. Easy fix, at least.

I use the shot clock because that is what the coaches and everyone else is looking at. You're welcome to call a 10-second violation with 26 on the shot clock, but there is no way that I would. If there is a problem with the table being slow to start I would address that seperately.

I stand corrected on the shot clock issue... If the shot clock is at 25 it means that 10 seconds has elapsed (at least it should mean that on most clocks -- at the D2/D3/JuCo level you never know!)

Each one of ours were relatively easy fixes as well, but it went well past annoying. The problem was the normal table crew was at the school's playoff football game, and the older gentleman that volunteered was having all sorts of problems. We tried to be as polite and professional as possible. But, after the crew got together to discuss the 5th or 6th problem, the poor guy was overheard saying to the scorekeepper, "I bet they're talkin' about me again..."

Well it did not matter in the National Championship game where the shot clock read 25 seconds and Florida got a timeout. Also the official that made the call that sparked this discussion did not come in and make the National Championship game. So there must be some reason he did not make this call again. The shot clock had 10 seconds come off and no violation was called.

Peace

You're right, if there's a problem with the clock, it should be addressed as soon as possible; not after 9 or 10 seconds has elapsed. And, in most situations, your count and the shot clock should coincide, so I've got a lot of explainin' to do if I call it with 26 showing. But I'm just leery in telling people to rely on the clock to determine the violation, because there are possible differences.

Besides, I'd be willing to go all-in on the fact that the vast majority of all officials have too slow of a 10-sec. count, including me. You got enough chips to cover the bet? :D

I once had a clock error 0 seconds into a D3 game.

Blew back a jump ball before it was touched to start the game. I looked up at the clock & saw that 2 seconds had come off.

It is possible for .1 second to come off the clock between the coach calling the timeout and the official granting the timeout; some time probably should come off.
I didn't see the questionable timeout in the championship game, but is it possible this happened? If so, there is the answer to that one. If that wasn't the case, everybody - including (gasp!) a national championship official - can make a mistake. Did Howland have a legitimate beef? He probably did.

Is it possible? YES!!
 

It is very possible. I just know that to my knowledge there was not changing of the shot clock and no violation after the timeout was called. Or it is possible that the NCAA addressed Burr's earlier call and said that was not supposed to be made by the C official in the manner it was made during the tournament. After all the rules and mechanics say that the official's count is what matters. I have never read anywhere it says the shot clock or clock is the factor. This is all speculation on my part.

Peace

JRut,

I'm not aware of the Burr incident you are referring to. What happened in that situation?

I did not see the play myself. I am only referring to what was stated. Apparently in one of the Regional Semi-Final, Jim Burr called a 10 second violation from the C position based on the shot clock. I guess the commentators made reference to this being the right call based on what the shot clock said. This situation was the main reason this conversation started as to philosophy and common sense.

I hope I did not leave anything out.

Peace

I'm sure there is a reason, but like you, I would just be guessing about it. It is certainly possible that somebody said to Burr not to make that call anymore. But I doubt that. As I said, this is taught at camps and (I thought, at least) generally accepted. Obviously, I could be wrong.

It's also possible that Tom's suggestion is right. Maybe there was a small lag time issue. But then, as you suggest, I might expect an adjustment to the shot clock.

It's also possible that Burr just didn't notice it this time until after the TO was granted. I didn't see the play, but if the ball was fairly close to him and there was pressure (which I'm assuming, since he had to call the TO), then maybe he couldn't take his eyes away to check the clock.

As I said, all guesses. We'll never know unless somebody gets to ask Mr. Burr about it at a camp this summer.

I know some people are going to get mad when I say this. I have never been taught this at any college camp I have been to. Now you live mostly on the East Coast and that could be the difference. Also many of the college games I have attended also do not have a shot clock working during those games. That could be a factor. Usually the games are HS teams so there would not be any shot clock present. Also even the pre-season Jamborees and scrimmages many times do not have a shot clock involved either. So you do not see this going on before the season. I just have never been told to use the shot clock as your guide as an exception to your vision count.

Peace

When guys are working games that are guaranteed to make Sportcenter and are likely watched by hundreds of thousands to millions of people, they're going to do things that may not be apparent or necessary at lower levels. When there is going to be so much scrutiny over thier work, they'll not give the camera obvious ammunition to pick apart their work. They're also going to have table crew that do start the clocks on time almost without fail. They're also going to know if the clock started on time or not and will fix it right away. Given all that, they know that if the shot clock is different than their count (calling a violation before the clock says 25 or not having a violation when the clock is less than 25 and the ball is still in the BC), they're going to catch hell over it and don't let it happen...likely by taking a glance at the clock (which is very visible in big televised games).