you make the call video
 

About a year ago there was a thread up that had a link to different plays on video. Does anyone remember the link to that? I have to lead an association meeting in few weeks and want to use it.

(I tried the search but can't find it.)

tomegun posted a few of those. Search for posts by him or send him a PM and inquire.

Thanks. I enjoyed these. Heckuva call on the block/charge, too, IMO.

Charge for me (but I had the video, the ref hadn't), he runs straight on the defender who moves sideways (allowed to maintain garding position)

Charge for me

I think so, too. For me it was a charge. The defender didn't move after the offensive player took off. The contact was right on the torso, which means the defender got to that position first!

Anyway, the way he sold it was a bit too much for me. From my point of view a repeated motion (did he make the signal three times?) like that is like yelling when I don't have any valid arguments left.

What do you think???

Where does the defender establish LGP? Block.

BTW, the defender looks like he took a dive. The offensive player is moving diagonally, but the defender "rebounds" perpendicular to the baseline. Plus, you can see the defender hunching his shoulder prior to launching himself backwards.

that is nice foot work in the first one.. :) a lot would never see it!!!

i got a block, heck of a call!!!!

the rebound you could almost have an intentional or technical...

call the double foul and give them both 2 pts for take down...

He never HAD legal guarding position.

I've got a block. One thing is for sure, no one can complain about whether the official selled the call or not. Nice job!

Appropriate sell for that particular call, IMO. I had a similar one this season in a BV game with about 20 seconds left and I think I banged the hips about three times (and then counted the basket).

I have a block as well. Many might not agree with this but I was taught that if the defender is not perpendicular to the offensive players path then that is just one reason for having a block.

He is facing his opponent, and he has both feet on the floor. No time and distance shall be required, right? That way he establishes a legal guarding position, doesn't he?

Thought about selling the call. The call could have gone both ways, as we learn from our discussion ;) Therefore, no matter which way it goes, the official has to sell it with authority. Still, I wouldn't repeatedly bang the hips. I'd rather do it once (but so that it would hurt a bit), then just stay there for a second with my fist in the air before going to the table.

Huh? :confused:

Since when is a defender allowed to move sideways?

Whenever you have block/charge, ask yourself "what did the defender do wrong?" - after all, you are supposed to be reffing the defense. If your answer is "nothing", call charge. If your answer contains the words "moves sideways", it's a block.

Having said all this, I think this is one of those calls where you could probably call charge and never get any heat for it. It'd be the wrong call, but you could get away with it.

I got a block.

I don't know for sure what you do in the States, or Canada for that matter, but under FIBA rules he is allowed to move sideways to maintain a legal guarding position.

And I tried to find something in my old NCAA rule book ... there it says:

1. Every player shall be entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.
2. The guard may shift to maintain guarding position in the path of the dribbler provided the guard does not charge into the dribbler.
   
   Did that change???

I do totally agree.

Where did you find that information?

Cheers,
Kostja

Apples and oranges. Not the same situation as the one in the video. In the video, the defender moved sideways into a shooter that had begun his shooting motion before the defender arrived at his spot. That's a block no matter what rules you're playing under.




Get bent.

Cheers,
CRG

I disagree, the defender is allowed to move sideways. Otherwise hows he supposed to play defense.

Read Rule 4-23-3c.

I've got a charge.

Of course he's allowed to move sideways.

But not if it's into a guy who's already begun his shooting motion.

I disagreed...he was not the primary defender and ,to me, he had not established LGP prior to sliding over.

Guys, I believe all the rule codes agree here. A defender may move sideways to keep a legal guarding position. However, if the shooter is airborne (as in the video) he is not allowed to move siideways once the ball carrier leaves the floor. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What has "primary defender" got to do with anything under NCAA Mens rules?:confused:

It's a term some of my NCAA-level buddies use when discussing PC/Block plays. Did the secondary (or help defender or whatever term anyone wants to use) defender establish LGP prior to collision/contact? Usually plays involving penetration to the basket where primary defender gets beat and secondary defender in paint slides over to help. They discuss 'L' picking up secondary defender and having a whistle on those types of crashes. IMO this block/charge video clip is a perfect example. The 'C' has eyes on the ball-handler and the defender trailing him. 'L' was in position to referee the defense, in this case the secondary defender.

I'm not 100% familiar with NCAA rules on this matter but in NFHS this guy has a LGP as far as I'm concerned.

Shooting motion is irrelevant last time I checked.



In my judgement he was in his spot before the shooter left the floor.

That's where you and I will disagree....he was not there in time.

My bad - "leaving the floor" is what I was referring to.

Definitely a block, he tried to take the offensive charge with his raised left shoulder, cheers

Forgive me, I can't stop :D Hopefully everybody learns something ...

Here they do.

Does airborne mean the shooter left the floor (that's how I would understand it), or does it mean, he began his shooting motion and is in the act of shooting but still on the ground?

FIBA rules allow any defender to move (laterally, backwards) into the path of the player with the ball, no matter if he is already in a shooting motion or still a dribbler. The crucial moment where all this changes is only when the player with the ball takes off (both feet leave the ground). From that point on, it is not allowed for a defender to move into his path since he can't change direction anymore.

From the FIBA rulebook:
When judging a block/charge situation involving a player with the ball, an official shall use the following principles:

• The defensive player must establish an initial legal guarding position by facing the player with the ball and having both feet on the floor.
• The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertically, move laterally or move backwards in order to maintain the initial legal guarding position. Yes
• When moving to maintain the initial legal guarding position, one or both feet may be off the floor for an instant, as long as the movement is lateral or backwards, but not towards the player with the ball.
• Contact must occur on the torso, in which case the defensive player would be considered as having been at the place of contact first.
• Having established a legal guarding position the defensive player may turn within his cylinder to cushion any blow or to avoid injury.

A player who is in the air

An opponent may not move into the path of a player after that player has jumped into the air.

The rule about a player in the air does not apply here, because the defender doesn't move after the offensive player has jumped! Now, that is my judgement with the aid of multiple replays in slow motion ... My judgement can still be wrong, but I am a hundred percent sure regarding the rules (FIBA).

I still got a charge, but the more I look at it the more respect do I have for the ref who made this call and sold as if he was absolutely sure about it (even though he probably wasn't).

Oh ... I promise I will shut up now and accept whatever you "block"-guys out there say ;)

By George, I have learned something.

I've learned that you don't referee the defense. :p

Remember I go by fiba rules

33.4
The defensive player may remain stationary, jump vertycally, move laterally or move backwards in order to maintain intial legal gaurding position.

You can go back, you can go sideways, and you still have your gaurding position. The defender was in his cylinder, face to his opponent. Moved sideways (allowed) and the offensive player jumped into him. Imo that's a charge

The contact was on the shoulder not the torso of the defender, therefore to me LGP was not established. I do not see any differences between Fiba rule fouls, Nba fouls, nor Ncaa fouls. You'll either get it right or get it wrong.

What does the word lateral mean?

move laterally=move sideways

Since approximately forever.

The defense is allowed to move to maintain LGP. The defense is not allowed to move "toward" the offense. If the defense moves sideways and the contact is on the torso, it's (generally) a PC foul.

I have a block - Good call.:D

Here is how it stacks up so far -

BLOCK = 11 GUYS CALL IT A BLOCK
CHARGE = 4 GUYS CALL IT A CHARGE

The Grand Jury in this case says it's a block so far.

Sorry badnews, with respect to applying the rule primary or secondary have no meaning. We can talk about who has responsibility for each, but under ncaa mens rules there's no difference in how LGP is obtained or how the call is made.

I'll vote block on this one btw. Seems B1 moved under A1 while he was in the air.

I'm not saying there is a difference, just answering JR's question...my original post said the secondary defender never established LGP so I had him for a block.

Interestingly no one mentioned that the player traveled before the play. The best call would have been a travel and then you wouldn't have to make a decision on this tough Block/Charge. :p

Of course in practice most officials (including myself) don't call this travel. It is the same type of travel that occurs before a lot of layups.

Regarding the Block/Charge I think it is a great example that not all plays are black and white. From different angles of the court this play looks a lot different. If I was officiating this play LIVE then I would probably call a block. It appears that the player is still moving into the path of the offensive player from the side. I'm also more inclined to call this a block because the defensive player sells the PC. It is a pet peeve of mine that players try to draw charges instead of playing good defense. I think that you should play good defense and if the offensive player initiates enough contact to displace you then it should be a PC. So again I'm pretty sure that during live action and while reffing the defense that I would call a block.

However, with the help of slow motion this looks like a PC because if you pause the video right before contact the defender has obtained and maintained LGP before the offensive player becomes an airborne shooter and the contact is partially in the torso area (upper left chest & shoulder)

So how do you like my answer: Tape = PC and Live = Block. :D

i think in slow mo you can tell the player on d stuck his left shoulder up in the air to try and draw the charge so that is why i would call a block on him...Block live and block in slow mo

This is a perfect thread to use the new feature of a poll. Problem is, I haven't figured out how to add it into a thread yet.

the person who started the thread can edit his first post in order to add a poll (I think it works that way anyway)

I got a block too. Too much lateral movement to get into the path of the driving player. I didn't mind the sell either.

OK. We agree, I don't think he had lgp either.

Okay, here is the poll: http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=25707

But you're allowed to move unless it's forward (And I'm quite certain the defender didn't move forward), so why the block?

Tough play for sure. I've got a block. The defender initiated the contact when he leaned his shoulder into the offensive player who was trying to go around him. The ref would have had a better angle had he widened out on the drive instead of seeing it from the close-down position.

I could do without the official doing the "kangaroo hop" sell.

Z

Yes, the defender is allowed to move sideways to maintain LGP. There also is no provision that the guard must be standing still on contact; just that the defender is still maintaining a LGP. At that point, it now depends on where the contact occurs. If it occurs on the torso of the defender, then you would normally call a charge. If the defender moves out of his normal upright plane just before the contact, so that the contact occurs on a outstretched arm or a leg or shoulder stuck out instead of directly on the torso of the defender, you have a block. I <b>think</b> that was the point that CanuckRef was trying to make previously when he was talking about moving sideways- i.e. a defender leaning sideways just before the contact

What does the contact have to do with establishing an LGP?

The defender has to establish LGP BEFORE the contact or it's a block. The first time I watched it I said "block". Then I watched it again - guess what - I still say "block". When you slow it down and pause it, the defender is still moving his right foot across as contact is being made. While most B/C calls are tough - I didn't think this one was all that close. The contact is also made on the left shoulder rather than the torso. I personally cannot see anyway to call it a charge. No way he travelled either, not even close on that (IMHO).

Everyone seems to be making a big deal out of LGP, how does the guard not have a LGP?!

How is it not "even close". His pivot foot is either on the ground or 1 inch off the ground when he gathers the ball. If you don't think so then that's your opinion but it is definitely close to being a travel.

If you notice I said "IMHO" - however after watching it again - I take that back. No way it's close to a walk. Yes, one foot is off the ground as he gathers the ball. By rule (4.44.2.a.2) that foot becomes the pivot foot when it touches. He can lift his pivot foot to pass or shoot. That foot does not return to the floor until after the crash. Not even close to a walk.

Not trying to be cocky or mean or anything - just stating my view of the rules. I don't think any upper level official would even consider calling that a walk when viewing that in RT. It's fun when we have video to watch and slow down and pick apart. This dude had to get it right in RT and I think he did. So did the vast majority of this post.

Once legal guarding position is established, the defender can move backwards or laterally to maintain it.

This is your opinion and I respect it.

If you don't think the player traveled by rule then I would hope that an upper level or lower level official would not call it. But for arguments sake lets say that the player gathered the dribble with the left foot on the ground. Would you call this a travel? This type of travel happens all the time and is not called, do you dispute this? Again I don't call this travel (even though I see it all the time) because I would be one of the few officials calling it. Another travel that is hardly ever called is the spin move that post players use. A post player has the ball with the left foot as the pivot. The player spins on the right foot and brings the left foot back around. This is a travel and is hardly ever called. It has become accepted as a basketball move. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just pointing out the rule.

Any other sites like this out their?