Just attended my first camp this weekend, and it went great. However, most all of the clinicians were telling me something that went against just about everyone else that's given me officiating advice.

When I have a situation where the ball goes OOB, I've always been taught to raise your hand, open palm, to stop the clock, then point the direction that ball's going. These guys were trying to get me to do away with the whole raising of the hand thing, just to point and say the color. Externally, I agreed with them that it felt better and seemed easier, but inside I wasn't too sure that's what HS assigners want to see (...or "not" see?).

Bearing in mind that most of the clinicians were college level, what do you fine folk do at the HS V/JV level?

When in rome, do as the romans.

At the camp, do what they want. Raise the issue with your association or assigners to see what they think. They may agree with the camps and want refs in your area to do away with it.

Having said that, when in doubt follow the book to a T. No one can fault you then (actually they still can, but at least you will know you did it right).

Dan, I think you were not well served. As a fairly new
official you have a long way to go before you start to worry
about looking good as an NCAA guy. In a recent post Tony
pointed out that raising that hand gives you a heartbeat
to think: OOB or foul? which way to point? My advice:
keep raising that hand until your *NCAA* supervisor
tells you he'll fire you if you don't stop.

Last I checked the NF Mechanics Manual said raise a hand first. The CGA(NCAA) manual doesn't say anything about raising the hand first. These guys were working on college mechanics. You should be working on NF mechanics. Next summer attend a camp that is High School minded.

Dan, the other guys are correct. When you go to camp, the college guys are going to talk to you about college mechanics. That's fine. As Brian said, when in Rome... But my guess is that your HS supervisor is going to want you to continue to raise hand.

Also, if you do summer leagues or rec leagues with running clock, don't get in the habit of not raising your hand. It's easy to do, but it hurts your mechanics when you start doing school games later in the year.

This was a point of emphasis within my association this past year because about half of our varsity officials also do college ball. It had even gotten to a point that a lot of officials were using "college mechanics" during rec games. We were told in no uncertain terms that the proper HS OOB mechanic is to blow the whistle to stop the clock, raise your hand straight up (some guys do open hand and other do fingers together), point the direction. Some guys like to call color before direction and some don't. I believe the officials' manual says to call the color and point the direction. I usually call color because I have been known to point the wrong direction while calling the opposite color (senior moments are becoming more frequent).

Me 2
 

I hate it, when I do that! It is usually followed by,<b> <font Size = 5>"I'm sorry! ...This way!" </font></b>
mick

I disagree with this. I am a believer in going to the NCAA camps as soon as possible. Why learn from anyone, but the best? It is not about "looking like" an NCAA official, it is about learning from their experiences and not making makes because they correct them before the mistakes are too deeply ingrained into what you do.



Once again, I disagree. While you are learning how to ref, go to the best source of information. Absolutely learn and practice the NF mechanics--that is very important, but you will always get better instruction from better instructors. Go to the college camps, you will not regret it. I know I haven't.




Good advice.

You'll notice I didn't say to *not* attend college camps.
What I did say is that he was ill-served at this particular
camp. I said that because the people running it should have
realized that he works HS & is there to improve on that.
I agree with you that it's never too early to attend any
camp, as long as you go to learn & improve. You're not
improving if they make you use mechanics that are not
appropriate to your level.

Yer right.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

You'll notice I didn't say to *not* attend college camps. What I did say is that he was ill-served at this particular camp. I said that because the people running it should have realized that he works HS & is there to improve on that. I agree with you that it's never too early to attend any camp, as long as you go to learn & improve. You're not improving if they make you use mechanics that are not appropriate to your level.

* * *
* * *
* Sparky sparkles! *
* * * *
* * *

I disagree with your premise here. Mechanics is not the only thing in officiating. Very important to be sure, but not everything. To say that one is not improving if one uses mechanics not appropriate to one's level is blatantly wrong. Anyone can improve their athleticism, stature, game awareness, game management, handling of coaches and players, judgement, concentration, focus, positioning, etc. regardless of the mechanics used at a camp. I do not believe that danvrapp was necessarily ill served at the camp, but did he get what he wanted out of the camp? If it was to improve NF Mechanics, maybe not, but if it was to improve his officiating, he probably did.

Often we get bogged down, IMO, on things that are not that important. Good judgement and game awareness are much more important than mechanics. Why? Because bad judgement or lack of game awareness will get you into a lot more trouble than bad mechanics will. Mechanics are simply a matter of practice. Anyone can learn them--and they are important, but if you go to a camp and think the camp failed you because the evaluators told you to use NCAA Mechanics and your NF mechanics didn't improve--then you didn't do a good job as a camper. Go and learn--anything and everything you can. "Be a sponge" is a term you'll often hear at the beginning of a camp and it is good advice--soak in as much as you can from the evaluators, the director and the campers.

That being said, choose your camps wisely. Don't just "go to a camp", go to a camp that will help you get to where you want to go. Have your goal in mind before you go.

Off the soapbox...;)

Ah, come on. Are you tellng me that a first year guy is
comfortable enough with the rules & NF mechanics
that he should be learning "advanced mechanics"?
I don't believe that & I'm sure that you don't either.
I also disagree strongly with the rest of your post but
life is too short.

I agree with your post stripes.

I'm sure Dan did learn a lot at this camp outside of the whole raising the arm or not dilemma (only he can answer that though). I too agree mechanics are not as important as overall game management. Don't get me wrong...you need to have excellent mechanics but when you're going to camp there is so much more to take in. If we dwell on mechanics criticisms, we miss all the other stuff.

No coach has ever questioned me on a mechanics slip up!

Jeff.

Hmmmm....seems to be that most of you are agreeing with me--raise the hand. That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure if this was something that's begun to trickle down to the HS level, and I want to stay "trendy" without going against NFHS mechanic rules.

This "tip" aside, I did think the rest of the camp was great for me. It was geared toward the younger official (it was the first time they held this camp) being transistioned into 3-person mechanics, and they people there offered all kinds of great advice. So, I don't think it was against what I needed, I was just unsure about the hand thing, since so many clinicians mentioned it.

Hey Dan, no one asked you to get in the middle of our
pissing contest so bud out, OK??? :p

That's what I've always loved about this forum--the comradity is amazing! ;)

Life is too short to...? Continue a discussion? Help a young official? Offer your opinion? I thought that this is what the forum was for. I don't expect you necessarily agree with what I say, but I don't want you to just stop the discussion either.

I don't know if a 1st year guy is comfortable with the mechanics or not, but any first year official should want to learn more at a camp than wether or not he should raise his arm for an OOB call. If athleticism, stature, game awareness, game management, handling of coaches and players, judgement, concentration, focus, positioning, etc. are "advanced mechanics" then I think all officials would want to learn the "advanced emchanics" regardless of their comfort level with the authorized NF mechanics and rules.

AS an aside, I hope you don't think this is a "pissing contest", I feel strongly about my position, but never intend to offend or demean any other official. Maybe it comes off that way (damn this writing style ;)), but that is never the intent. If we can't agree, that's ok too. We'll agree to disagree.

The last time I read the NFHS and NCAA/CCA Manuals, which was about five minutes ago, the official will raise his arm and show a clenched fist for a foul and raise his arm and show an open hand for anything that is not a foul.

I am a member of IAABO's Visualization and Education Committee (which is chaired by Edgar Cartotto, Men's/Women's Supervisor, Northwest Conf.), and I can tell you that the NFHS and NCAA Rule Committees want officials to raise their hands per the Mechanics Manuals. The problem that those of us who are charged with instructing new and experienced officials is that too many camp administrators think that they are above the Rules Committees and want to teach unauthorized mechanics.

There is a reason for an official to raise his hand and to show either a closed fist or an open hand. And that reason is COMMUNICATION. Communication with his partners, the scorer/timer table, the players, and the coaches.

I can assure you that people like Edgar Cartotto or Peter Webb (IAABO President and two time member of the NFHS Rules Committee) and other people who are involved the education of basketball officials believe in doing it the correct way because there is only one way to officiate and that is the correct way.

There is that one exception.
 

Mark,
The exception noted in the manual for CCA Women is:

"There is no stop clock signal prior ro an out of bounds violation."

Would that mean that there is a stop clock signal <b>after</b> the violation occurs? ;)
mick

Dan_Ref is your man.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

Quote:

...I think all officials would want to learn the <u>"advanced emchanics"</u> regardless of their comfort level....

stripes,
Dan_Ref knows all that scientific stuff.
mick

Is it me, or was the pissing contest comment a joke?? At least I took it that way.

Yes, it was a joke.

Gee, I don't know where I said anything that disagrees with
any of this. But I am fairly certain you can find a camp
that focusses on HS mechanics, 2 or 3 man, and will also
help you grow in all the areas you mention. And they won't
tell you it's cool to not raise your hand. You aren't trying
to tell us that you need to go to a college camp for this
stuff, are you?

Depending on the camp, it might be an overload of info for a rookie or someone with 2-3 years experience to go to a college camp. I think in general, camps will only help you no matter where or level they teach. If you arein the right frame of mind you can't help but improve. I think the bigger question is... are you maximizing your jack? If you are going to drop two or three bennies on a camp you should research all the options out there to ensure you are going to maximize your investment. You may have learned a ton at a college camp, but maybe you would have learned a ton and a half somewhere else for $50 buck less.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is not about using advanced mechanics. It is about using CORRECT mechanics and why good officials use CORRECT mechanics: COMMUNICATION. Read my posting of yesterday. In structural engineering there are design codes that I and my fellow structural engineers must following in designing structures so that these structures are safe for the public to use. Basketball rules and mechanics serve the same purpose in the game of basketball. Not stopping the clock is just plain laziness, and believe me officiating in not nearly as complicated as structural engineering.

B.S.
 

Mark,
I agree with you regarding the proper mechanics per level.
And, I think, most officials, here, also agree.
Every chance I get, I rip on a partner who brings a college mechanic to the high school game. But as far as calling it "laziness", even "plain laziness", I don't think that's the case with my partners. For my partners I think it is 10% reflex and 90% showtime.

On the other matter, don't both structural engineering and hoops officiating require B.S.?
mick

I agree the issue isn't "advanced" mechanics (I'm
kinda sorry now that I used that term to begin with).
As you say it's communication. But I don't think
not stopping the clock is laziness at the college level.
It's expected/required/cool. Not at all the case in HS.

Re: B.S.
 

...as well as MS (more of same) and Ph.D.
(piled higher and deeper)

(BTW, I didn't mean to repeat what you said in my post.
I gotta learn to read everything before opening my yap!))

Glad the "pissing contest" thing was a joke. I took it that way, but then again, you never know...



You can find all kinds of camps and they will help in with all kinds of things, but only to certain degrees. I am trying to say that the overall quality of the instruction you will receive is much higher at a college camp. Why pay $$ for less than the best?



Just curious, how do you determine how to maximize your investment?

I'm shootin' from the hip
 

stripes,
I've never been to a college camp, hence no "set" schedule.

How'er, two of my partners have been to both HS and College camps and both said the amount of instruction (<i>apart from learning the college mechanics, which, as noted, may be taught at HS camps by college clinicians</i>) and the amount of feedback and video taping of officials is greater at the HS camps. These partners do not need the HS camp to be successful in high school, but they need to pay the dues and homage for the college camp assignor that "suggests" they show up.

Combining those opinions with your opinions, and <i> considering <b>Dan_ref's</b> experiences</i>, I think it's pretty clear that any camp, any level is, only, what it is.

For my purposes, in accordance with my reponsibilities, my next camp will probably be HS again, and again I will glean my college level mechanics from my main man and from CCA books, so that I can hit the small college floor with some semblance of knowledge.
mick

Mick--

Fair enough. I started going to college camps at the end of my 2nd year and didn't go to a HS camp until after my 4th year (I also went to a college camp that year). As far as I am concerned there is absolutely no comparison between what you get at the different camps. The college camps always cost much more, but I feel like I get more than my money's worth at these camps. About half the time I feel cheated at the HS camps because I walk away with very little instruction/feedback.

I also do not need the HS camps to be successful, but we are required to attend them to maintain our varsity status.

Maybe the quality of the camps depends on who is running it and what state it is located in, but I would go to almost any college camp before I would go to a HS camp.

Re: There is that one exception.
 

You didn't hear the latest mechanics change? Officials are supposed to be telepathic - that way when we're accused of fixing games, we can say we're just appeasing the fates.

NYS Girls Bball
 

Here in New York State we use the NCAA Womans Rules for high school girls. The correct NCAA is on ball O.O.B you just the point direction. We don't raise our hand.

PC