How does he continue to get big games? He never stays in his primary, has no personality, his mechanics are horrible and he sucks up to every coach in the country.

Maybe that is why he gets them.

Watch him ... he'll spend the entire game looking across the floor to watch the ball instead of watching matchups in his area.

Sorry ... had to vent. Enjoy the games this week.

What were your other 8 posts?

Huh?

When you posted the OP, you had 8 prior posts. Usually at this time of the year, lurkers come out of the woodwork and complain about this or complain about that.

Were your other 8 posts complaining about something else?

JR,

You want to respond to the ideas in his post, or do you want to make personal attacks?

There is plenty of substance there.

Are you kidding?

The original poster made a personal attack on Hightower, and you're attacking someone else for defending a fellow official? :rolleyes:

Must be 2-for-1 troll day...

He did start a nice thread about the SEC refs, so maybe he's not a troll.

But to say that Ed H always looks off-ball, has wrong mechanics, etc.... is a bit of a stretch.

Sorry, intended post is below.

Okay, fair point. "Always" is obviously false. Might you respond as if he'd not used so strong a word?

I will give an answer; he flat out gets it done. I have watched Hightower work games for years in person at the Big Ten Tournament every year since 2000. I can tell you he knows how to handle players, coaches and works with his partners well. I agree that his mechanics are not to the letter (but who is that is at that level if you want to be honest), but he flat out can referee and has the respect of all the coaches. Now you might not agree but no one asked you. :D

Peace

A couple years ago, he was doing a national semi-final, late in the 2nd half, very close game. A fast break happens...ball carrier driving to hoop against two players, big crash, an obvious block, but the Lead and Trail have a double whistle, though a bit of a staggered one.

Lead is all over it, and he's got block all the way, comes out selling big-time. Hightower is Trail, and gallops in faster than Carl Lewis. He comes right into the middle of the key, six feet from his partner, stops, and gives the most emphatic travel signal in officiating history. The place explodes. Players and coaches are on him like white on rice. Hightower jogs back to his spot calmly, closeup shows him as cool as as a cuke. Doesn't even look like he's sweating. TV replay confirms it was a travel. Even Packer agrees.

Any guy with focus, ability, and stones like that gets to work any game he wants. Period.

EDIT: Thinking deeper, it may have been a regional final, not a nat'l semi

[Edited by canuckrefguy on Mar 13th, 2006 at 02:32 AM]

His facial expressions hardly ever change. I have watched the man like a hawk during every timeout, TV timeout and confrontation and he hardly ever looks like he gets upset, angry or shows that he is working hard. The man on Sunday during the Big Ten Title game got nailed (in the sack) by a player that fell into him hard. After he stayed down for about a minute and was attended by trainers, he got back up and you would have never been able to tell that some big athletic player ran him over. He did not miss a beat. I was in shock and I was about 10 rows from the court. The man has his detractors but he can flat out referee.

Peace

If he was looking in his primary, he might have seen the possible contact, and moved to avoid it. ;)

I'll never forget the Ted Valentine/Bobby Knight incident, though (which I saw on TV as it happened). Neither O'Neill nor Hightower did anything to get between the two of them, even after Valentine ejected Knight. I thought it was a perfect example of a guy getting thrown under the bus by his partners and I lost a lot of respect for the two of them that day.

Anyone know if Hightower and Valentine are close friends, acquintances, or mere colleagues?

Without divulging too much info., there was quite an argument in the locker room that day in Bloomington between Hightower, Valentine, and O'Neill. Suffice it to say that you did not see any games worked by a crew that included Valentine AND Hightower for a number of years since that incident.

Most guys at that level are Type A personalities. You cannot tell Hightower, Valentine, Welmer, Higgins, Burr, etc. what to call or where. They will call what they want in their primary and in yours too, if needed. However, they are correct (for the most part) a lot more than others and have the experience to back it up.

Ultimately, coaches aren't as concerned with who calls the foul, as long as it is called correctly.

Donald Trump was interviewed on Larry King the other night. He said that anyone who is very successful has an ego. Same thing in officiating.

Just a couple questions for of curiosity's sake. What year did the Hightower/Teddy V/Bobby K incident happen, circa 1998?

And does anyone know how many Final Four assignments Hightower & Teddy V each have received since that incident?

I do not know how many exactly but I think Hightower has been there at least 3 times. I think Teddy has been there at least 2 times. Now this is total memory on my part. Why do you ask?

Peace

Just wondering if either one's Final Four assignments curtailed after the incident.

I've heard an hearsay account of what happened that evening from someone who knew both Hightower & Valentine and is still friendly with one of the two. But my military background precludes me from passing along gossip. :cool:

I don't know why Hightower is getting attacked; there are at least 3 other guys I think of instantly that are way worse at everything except dealing with coaches. Doh, one of them just pulled up his pants! :D

I have a prediction: if we have a few more "incidents" like Florida St. and the Super Bowl pressure for change will come down like never before.

I hope that isn't a serious question. If it is...I hope it isn't.

My eyes just did a complete 360 in my head. :rolleyes: I don't want to divulge too much information, but your list? Ha Ha Ha! One doesn't fit what you are saying.

If you're going to big-time jeffpea, than do it all the way and spill. Otherwise, there's no reason anybody should accept your assessment over his.

tomegun - so what you're saying is that if games continue to occur where the officials make one mistake (Florida St player incorrectly charged a T and Seattle QB incorrectly assessed a penalty for "illegal block" during the interception return), then there will be "pressure for change like never before".....huh?

All I'm saying is, that in my opinion, officials will get pressure put on them to make changes. We are in a media age and right or wrong people are playing video and talking bad about officials more than ever. I'm not saying this is right; I just think the pressure will continue to mount. Look at how Sportcenter blatantly talked bad about the Super Bowl officials. I think it was wrong to do what they did but then we see the video on cell phones, tv and computers. Also, someone can have the perfect game but the fans and players of the losing team will think the got robbed.

They have to blame someone and officials might take the fall.

If it seemed like I'm big-timing him, I'm sorry. I never want to do that.

Sorry.

Whenever Hightower is doing a big game, particularly if it's in High Definition, I find I watch him more than the game. He does drift. His situational and occasionally bizzare mechanics can be confounding for a wannabe like me. But he just seems to get it right. Even players who act like they've never committed a foul in their lives seem to just walk back to their huddle when he tags them. I think he's fantastic at what he does.

Plus, when have you ever heard a college crowd chant a ref's name after an injury, but do it in a respectful way, not a sing-songy way?

On the Valentine/Hightower thing, does anyone remember a game a few weeks ago involving Duke, where Kryzewski was starting to lose his mind, and Ted just basically put him rump right into K's midsection, and screened him from one of his partners who was getting an earful? I know Shows was on that crew, but maybe the other was Hightower. Am I remembering that right? Does anyone else remember what I'm talking about?

From Excel Sports Officiating website bio of Ed Hightower:
"He worked seven consecutive NCAA Final Four tournaments from 1988 to 1994 and again in 1996 and 2002."
Add the semifinal game between Illinois and Louisville that he worked in 2005 and that makes 10 Final Fours.

The info I want is how old is he? Does anyone out there have a definitive source for his birthdate?

Someone else will have to do the FF research on Valentine.

tomegun - I'm not sure how officials will take the "fall" more than in the past simply because we are in the "video age". Certainly there is more scrutiny than ever before because more people have the ability to see the games (more games are now being broadcast thru a variety of different sources).

It is incumbent on the supervisors of the various leagues to back up the game officials when needed (i.e. the pass interference in the end zone against Seattle is EXACTLY what the NFL wants called by its' officials) and admonish the officials when needed. I don't know that I agree with a public display of the punishment handed down to the officials (i.e. announcing game officials have been suspended one game), but a simple "the game officials incorrectly adminsitered the rule; measures have been taken so that this error does not occur in the future"

Hightower and the other "big time officials" ultimately get the calls and rules interps correct. I watch their positioning/angles during games - NOT their mechanics. BTW Scott Thornley is, IMO, the best at getting into the perfect position to see the play (you'll be amazed at how much he "moves to improve").

Jeffpea, you are definately drinking the Kool-Aid. Thornley is a very nice man with a passion for the game. He is a good official too. However, he is one of the best officials at getting into the WORST position to see plays. Instead of going top-side, he constantly goes low - almost to the endline. Why squat when looking at a play? Why move to the hoop with a play instead of stepping up so the play opens up? Why not take a step onto the court to see between players in the corner? Squating down, putting hands on knees, etc., is all very cute but it does nothing to help with angles. If those practices are so great, why don't the NBA officials do it? Some of them have their habits, but they spend at least $400 per game in evaluations, the price of laptops and the officials have to watch the entire game when they are done. That is training, number crunching and work to get the best angles on all the plays.

tom,

just wanted to let you know that though we don't agree on much that isn't related to officiating, our views on officiating are remarkably similary.

It isn't that we disagree on other things really. I just love a spirited debate. It is all in fun.

You just described the way David Hall officiates.

Did I do that? :D

[cough]Duke vs UCONN about three years ago[cough] breakdown the film [cough]14 or so blown calls [cough]

Oh, you mean this game?

College Basketball: 2004: Connecticut vs. Duke
NCAA Tournament semifinal, from 4/3/04.
CHANNEL: ESPN CLASSIC
DATE / TIME: March 15: 11:00AM EST
LENGTH: 120 Minutes

How convenient that it is being shown TODAY!!!
Record it, review it, grade it. :)

[cough]unbelievable[cough] :rolleyes:

[cough]unbelievable[cough] :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Nah, I believe it. Not surprising at all.

btw, you guys should do something about that cough.

I wouldn't say Olandis Poole had the strongest game that night either. But he's in the NBA now, so I digress...

We all have our bad games, fortunately for most of us, ours are not replayed on ESPN Classic.

Olandis Poole is an outstanding ref, though.

I never really understood why this crew was as criticized as it was. Okafor's second was arguable. But he wasn't entirely vertical. Yes, it's one that maybe gets let go by other crews and it took the best player out of the game for a while, but they called it consistently, both ways.

It was two years ago, and it's hard to remember, but ultimately, looking at the big picture, the officials did not seem to me to have an impact on the result. Both teams were unhappy with the officiating, which is probably as good an indication that it was well called as if both teams were happy. The better team won. The players decided the game. Duke played better for an extended period, but Conncecticut dominated in winning time. All of the end of the game situations were called exactly right. I think there were two plays at the end of the game that got Kryzewski all worked up, but both were correct. On one, Redick drove in the lane and lost the ball and claimed contact, but on the replay, the ball goes straight down and it looks like the defender (Anderson? going by memory here) got ball. On the other, Redick went up for a game tying 3, and didn't come close to getting touched other than in Kryzewski's mind.

According to an NBA official, who has been breaking down tape for years, Poole did have a good game. Most of the calls that were pointed out had to do with an official being out of position. I just want to make it clear; this isn't something I came to on my own, it was in a learning environment.

A lot of the comments on here are pretty amazing to me. Every one of you that is criticizing one of these officials has something in common - you are all sitting at home while they are working!

If I were you, I'd start figuring out what these guys are doing that has helped them move up the ladder and stay there, rather than critique their mechanics, positioning, etc.

They are at the top level of the college game - and it is much different than high school / lower college level when it comes to having the ability to get there and (more importantly) stay there!

- Brad

Amen.

Kinda amazing to me that an oficial could blow 14 calls in one game and still keep his job after that, let alone go to a Final Four.

Amen Brad...I spend about 75% of my television basketball viewing paying attention to the refs to see what they are doing, how they are moving, what they are looking at, how they communicating with the coaches and players. I especially watch officials of my body type to see how they run and present their mechanics.

No one could have said it better. My point exactly.

Peace

I'll amen that amen.

I agree with Brad.

As they say...I've got no dog in this fight...but I am a little offended, Brad.

I'm still working! I have an adult-men's-rec-league game this Sunday! :) In fact, it's a double header! None of that sissy one-game-and-your-done stuff.

Just kidding, Brad. Valid point.

Some of us have no desire to climb that ladder. Does that mean we can't have an opinion (unless it's a glowing one)?

Critiquing upperlevel officials is how you get better. You can learn from the bads and the goods that these officials do. I'm one of the last people to bash officials but Ed Hightower does some things that would be unacceptable for newer college officials and this is simply because he IS Ed Hightower. I think he is a great official and I try to pick up things from watching him work.

And many of those officials are not there because of pure ability. There are PLENTY of officials working HS ball that could easily be working college level games. Its not always how good you are but who you know.

Well, maybe that's how you get better.

Critiquing my own performance is how I get better. Getting critiqued by officials I know & respect is how I get better. Critiquing other officials is what I do to try & make THEM get better, if they're willing to listen & accept it. Critiquing other officials behind their back is...well...rude. I can't imagine 1 thing Hightower does that would not make an aspiring college official better if he put it into his game. Then we agree.

Many, eh? Name 5 or 6.Yeah I know...if I only had the connections I would be touring the world making big money instead of doing my singing in the church choir.

:rolleyes:

Holy crap :rolleyes:

I leave the thread for a day and it degenerates into THIS?

It's one thing to discuss controversial calls, unusual incidents - the usual "how 'bout the way they handled that?" kind of stuff...

But dumping all over seasoned big-time officials, some of them with multiple Final Fours and National Championship games....talking about how much they supposedly suck.

I met Scott Thornley at a camp, and found him to be one of the nicest guys I've met in officiating, and full of knowledge and helpful insights. Maybe some of you don't find him to be your cup of tea - but he doesn't deserve that kind of BS.

Gimme a break. And get a life.

Nah, I believe it. Not surprising at all.

btw, you guys should do something about that cough. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dan, I agree. Since they didn't do anything about it, I've picked it up. LOL Well, ok, so I really do have a cough now, but it's not cause of you two. ;)

Personally I think that it's pretty bad form to sit there and criticize officials - unless your goal is to help them.

I've had people make comments to me about the officiating in NCAA games or the Superbowl, etc. - my response is always the same: When you get to that level out on that court/field, then you can talk.

College ball is different than high school and Division I is different than lower level college. Just because you referee at one level doesn't mean that you know what it takes to work at the next level. It's not all about mechanics, positioning, etc.

- Brad

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brad

Quote:

When you get to that level out on that court/field, then you can talk.

I have to say Brad, that's a somewhat closed minded attitude. I think there's a difference in sitting in the stands and criticizing the offiicals on the floor, versus discussing situations on this board that may arise during a nationally televised game. While I agree that no good can come from tearing these guys apart, we can learn from discussing their mistakes. I can tell you that this is one official that learned a lesson from our discussion on the blarge that two D1 officials called in a NCAA Regional Championship game between Iowa State and Michigan State, that resulted in one player fouling and and a head coach being ejected.

Personally, I would love to sit down with some of these guys and ask why so much traveling is allowed in the low post. It's getting as bad as the NBA. It's not difficult to see or call. So why do they refuse to call it? Am I not allowed to have that opinion, simply because I'll never "get to that level?

JMHO.

It's about spending $400 a pop a few times a summer in extort......I mean camp money, right?

I find it in bad form to bash officials. I find it in even worse form to tell people what they should and shouldn't say based on my opinion. Shrug.

There is a difference between learning from a blarge or other difficult situation and saying "How does this guy get games?!?", which is what the OP stated - and was echoed by many.

I've heard far too many high school officials talk about NBA guys, etc., when they really don't have a clue about working at that level.

To each his own, but you aren't going to hear me criticizing an official like that.

1. There is always room for any person in this country to voice his own personal opinion whether others agree with it or not.

2. There are certain facts that can be observed by anyone who watches some of these guys work, no matter what level that observer is currently officiating at or even if he officiates at all.
a. David Hall often squats down, puts his hands on his knees, and leans from side to side while officiating.
b. Hightower frequently leans instead of moving his feet when at the C or T. Kind of a wobble or teeter. Sometimes he will take a spot in the middle of the lane when working as the Lead.
These guys are old school and likely have been doing these things long before the "mechanics" that we have now were ever put in. Perhaps they even came up with some of them. 3-man wasn't invented in a day. It was evolved. Maybe they shouldn't be forced to change/conform entirely.

3. However, it is debatable whether these actions help these people get a better angle to see a play. I do know that I and many others on this forum have been instructed NOT to do these exact actions at camps, sometimes run by the very people who do it! I guess it's: Do what I say, not what I do.

4. Do they get a high percentage of their calls correct (say 90%+) and how much of a role do their movements/mechanics play in the correctness or incorrectness? That is also up for debate.

5. Both of the men named above know far more about officiating basketball than I probably ever will. Does that mean that they are above critique? Nope. Does it mean that I cannot say anything about their games? I don't think so.



[Edited by Nevadaref on Mar 16th, 2006 at 03:52 AM]

If we were on the street talking about another official I would agree with the comments about officials. However, I think we can talk a little more openly on this board. What kind of world would we live in if we accepted what those above us do as always being correct? Thinking about that should give us all at least one example of this happening; not neccessarily in basketball. Also, I don't live in a world where people always get what they deserve and deserve what they get. Life just isn't that way so we shouldn't put officiating in a bubble.

I don't doubt there being an official on this board that is worthy of being a D1 official but hasn't made it. In fact I know there is.
I could name at least one obvious official that doesn't deserve, based on ability, to be where he is and it isn't Hightower, Hall or Thornley.

I know there are some preachers and politicians (presidents) that wish more people wouldn't question what they do. :D

[Edited by tomegun on Mar 16th, 2006 at 05:11 AM]

In other words, we don't have to be "referee fanboys" all the time.

Part of the problem the fans have is that we ALWAYS seem to defend the officials, regardless of what they do. Let's defend the effort, sure, but when they make mistakes we shouldn't be afraid to talk about them.

Then name them already.

I think the issue is not whether you can or cannot talk about other officials. The point is it sounds very unprofessional to constantly rip guys on levels that you or I will probably never reach. These guys are scrutinized in ways most of us will never ever understand unless we get to that point. Also to say that you do not want to be there does not wash either. Remember the very same thing you guys are saying about these officials are the same thing I am sure people are saying about you that cannot work the level you currently work. The only differences are you guys are doing it on a public forum and the officials in your area are doing it behind your back while in the stands. Remember what goes around comes around. ;)

Peace

Addressing only this specific statement from BBR

I was working a camp last year and in one particular game I was being observered by an SEC (and I think NBDL also) referee. High level HS all-star players (Buck Williams was coaching one team) with big, talented post players. As the Lead I called a travel in the post. At halftime the observer advised me that as the Lead I should probably lay off that call and concentrate on the match-up. He said if a travel occurs that needs to be called that the Trail should be able to help.

Just one observer's opinion, but it is advice i've kept in my head.

Guess Who's Working Seton Hall and Wichita St?
 

I guess the NCAA couldn't wait to get him out there. He's the referee on the 7-10 game between SH and WSU.

Yeah... He is so horrible I just don't understand how he gets these games. I mean, doesn't everyone else recognize what I do - that he is not very good?!? I can't believe that the coaches, conferences, and NCAA all cannot see what is clear to me - that he is horrendous!!!

/extreme sarcasm

Who is the he? Just for the record, I think Hightower is good. I don't actually think Thornley or Hall are bad either; I just think they do some things that take them out of the best position.

Re: Guess Who's Working Seton Hall and Wichita St?
 

I guess that means one of my mentors is working with him. That is pretty darn cool. To bad right now I cannot see the game.

Peace

Rut -- did you try the NCAA on demand? I know some people that are watching on their computer at work that way!

I am trying right now.
 

I am in the waiting list. How in the hell do you get on the VIP list?

Peace

Ahh... not sure -- I think that you had to register early.

I work from home, so I have the TV on... Sorry -- won't rub it in! :)

I work from home as well. I am watching TV right now. The Hall/Wichita St. game is not on. They are showing UW-Milwaukee/Oklahoma right now.

Peace

Oops! He...is Ed Hightower
 

Sorry. My bad. Since the thread was originally about Ed Hightower, I assumed everyone would make the connection. Well, you know what they say when you assume...

That's nice.

You gonna "name at least one obvious official that doesn't deserve, based on ability, to be where he is"?

Or you gonna just hope we forget about it?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Mar 16th, 2006 at 07:39 PM]

Actually, I was hoping you would forget about it. :) If you notice, I didn't bring up any officials name first. I thought it would be obvious for us basketball (official) junkies which official is always on TV but doesn't do anything to really fit the "big-time official" label.

Where do you live?

NY.

Or can't you tell? ;)

I had no idea you lived in NY. NYNY or NY the state?

Born & grew up NYC.

Live in the suburbs now.

Do you know Terry G (all day) or Johnny Etheridge?

Being in the midwest, I can only assume you're talking about Steve Welmer.

The sports section of our local paper does a full feature every year after the basketball season where they poll all the players at the Big Ten schools. They ask things from the serious ("Who is the player of the year?") all the way to the sublime ("Which player does the most trash talking?", or "What's your favorite Play-Station game?"). One of the questions they always ask is, "Who is your favorite ref?". The answer has been the same for the last couple of years in a row - Steve Welmer, by a wide percentage. The comments that go with it include things like he will always talk to you; let's you know what you did wrong, etc. That tells me he has the respect of the players, as well as coaches and supervisors.

I've noticed over the years that he's not the greatest from a mechanics standpoint, and sometimes I don't agree with his calls. And I sure do wish he would use one of those flex-belts to keep his pants up. :D But I'm always wondering what keeps officials like him, Hightower, Burr, Valentine, and so on at the highest levels, when if I were to emulate their movements at a camp I would be laughed right out. So, maybe there's more to their games than what's on tape, so to speak. There's obviously something about their personalities and communication skills that keep them there, not just their mechanics and body shapes. Maybe they missed a call, but they also do little things throughout the game that helped prevent 3 other calls. I think we all know that there's a lot more to officiating than just making the right calls on the court. So I'm always looking to pick up those kind of pointers - how to communicate, when to be the hard-a$$ and when to sit back and just listen, what rules to nit-pick and what to ignore and when. That's what I'm hoping to learn from these guys.

There may be some officials that are better than the ones currently working, but things like job and family commitments keep them from being available for those higher levels. But, I'll guarantee of the ones available, the best of that bunch are the ones now working.