As a coach, what can I tell/ask the refs prior to a game to ensure they prevent a very physical (10th grade)game?
I.e. some refs call fouls well, others allow alot of defensive fouls in the paint.
My goal is keep the kids safe at all times.

Coach, A word of caution. A question you should ask yourself.

Would I want an official tell or suggest to me how to coach my team? I know you may be concern. However, this is a very fine line.

Take this approach when trying to address officiating. Do not EVER approach an official about calls from you vantage point.

Ths, but don't read too deeply into this.

My boys have told me (we face these refs b4) that they get all banged up by the defense driving in the lane.

Other refs (in our league) call the appropriate fouls....
but there are these 2 that allow it.

I'm looking for the right, respectful, diplomatic msg. to remind them...this isn't the NBA...we don't need our boys to get mauled.

Coach,

I can tell you right now you would lose all credibility with me right off the bat. You have no right to tell me what to do or how to do it. I do not know the ins and outs of your offense or defensive schemes. Do not tell me what I should do to officiate a game. If you want a safe game that is your issue. I can never guarantee the safety of your team. That is your job. All I do is call violations and fouls that I see and I think apply to the game appropriately. Kids are going to get hurt whether I blow my whistle or not. It is your job to teach the kids to adjust the style of play and the officiating.

Peace

Hello Coach. IMO, the best way to approach a game you believe will be rough is to have your players prepared to play hard. I don't think mentioning anything to the officials will be helpful. You'd be suprised how oftentimes officials are in tune with the style of play for the teams. We generally know what to expect although I do not go into a game anticipating something WILL happen. Hopefully, the officials you have will call the game accordingly when the rules are broken.

Coaches who are anticipating stuff before the game and bring it to the officials attention are considered to be already trying to "work the officials", and though done in a respectful manner......ignored. If something happens, the officials should react on their own with the appropriate call/ penalty.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for but it's the answer I offer to you. If we know a team has a point guard who cannot handle pressure, we don't offer coaching tips. What I'm trying to say, is to first let the officials do their job. If they don't, you could try speaking up after to 1st quarter but that may or may not help. Some games will be more physical but that doesn't necessarily mean the officials let alot go. It could just mean the game was more physical. Good luck.

Geez.....now I know why politicians have it so hard dealing with foreign ambassadors?! The written word being so scrutinized for subliminal msgs....

Thx all for your replies, sincerely....I learn from all my experiences.

However, if you re-read my posts you'll see I'm idelooking to keep my team safe as 1 venue's refs are allowing a physical game AND not calling appropriate fouls.

I know Bball is a contact sport, we are prepared to play aggressively, we do adapt...but when a (an intentional) foul is committed, I expect a whistle. It should be the refs. who set the tone of the game.....but I know I'll get feedback to the contrary.

Thanks all for the feedback....I'm off to the foray!

Naw, you're looking to plant a l'il seed into the officials' minds to call fouls on the <b>other</b> team. That's one of the oldest coaching ploys around; coaches have been pulling that one out since Naismith's day. It ain't gonna work with any kind of experienced official though, but if you think that you can intimidate some newer officials into giving you a break, hey, be my guest. You aren't the only coach around trying that one.

You said you were looking to keep <b>your</b> team safe, coach. I mighta been maybe a little impressed if you hadda said that you were looking to keep <b>both</b> teams safe. But.....you really don't care about the <b>other</b> team anyway, do you?

It's not your place to tell the officials how to call the game.

You've got some issues, coach. You aren't playing the officials, you're playing the opposing team. Your entire outlook on the game is wrong from the gitgo.

Your opponent plays my physically than other teams you play. Then make adjustments with your team. Don't expect the officials to change the way they call the game because you ask them to. Sorry but that's stupid.

I had a BCI girls game today, 16,17 year old girls, that was very physical from the start of the game to the end. One team was bigger and didn't mind using their size and strength. Both teams played very physical. We had at least five fouls called on players for flattening another player who was screening them. We had another five or so fouls for illegal picks, one of those led to a flagrant foul. Numerous off the ball shoves, pushes, etc. in the paint. Point is....there was absolutely nothing we could do to protect the players. Five players fouled out. The game lasted way too long for my tastes and it didn't help that there were morons in the stands who had no clue wanting to kill us! The coaches were OK, but one team really played kind of dirty and paid for it. Still, there was a flagrant and a couple of injuries. What can you do? If the players play that rough and out of control, it is up to the coaches to get them in line. All we can do is call the fouls.

Coach, to keep your kids safe, keep them in the locker room. The worst injuries I've seen in basketball didn't happen as a result of fouls. Sports expose kids to risks that aren't there otherwise. That's life. The refs in a different league call things looser than the refs in your own league. If you really think that your players are risking bodily harm, then don't play in that league! There's not much to be gained by trying to talk to the refs about it. If you really have a complaint, talk to the assignor. Otherwise, forget it. Coach your kids, and leave the refs alone.

1. That you'll stick to coaching
2. That you'll stay in your coach's box
3. That you won't forget 1 & 2

Other than that, say nothing.

If you approach me before the game, asking/telling me to do this, that, and the other thing, you are alienating me right off the bat.

Bad idea.

Just smile, say "hi", "have a good game", "good luck", or something like that and walk away.

I cannot speak for anyone else but I clearly read and understood your point on this. You actually think that you are going to say something that will make a difference. Now I am not the most experienced referee here, but I know in my 10 years of officiating I have never had a coach successfully tell me or my partner what to do and we took the information as something positive. Now maybe you will find someone that cares, but I know I will not. I know I will not find other officials that have similar experience and take your "comments" as a positive thing.

If you feel that way, maybe you are not a very good coach. The best coaches hardly say anything or the pick their spots when they complain. I know of a coach that once coached Isaiah Thomas in HS and has sent many players to Division 1 Basketball. I have had this coach about 4 times and in the last 3 years. He has only said one thing to me about any call in all those games. He spoke at an association that I belong to last spring and received an award from out association. He said that he leaves the officials alone because "If I talk to them I am not coaching my kids." I know every time I work for him, I know if he has something to say, he is probably right or has a good point. Now you can take the advice or leave it. I think we are just trying to prepare you for what you will face. At the level you coach you might get an official or two that is rather new and might listen to you. If you run into a veteran, they will just add you to the list of funny stories they tell their fellow official about how dumb they think you are.

Peace

I think he's gone but I'm reading. If it helps any, even I thought the question was inappropriate.:)

I think he is gone too, but my post was for the benefit of others that might read it. I hope you learned something out of this post.

Peace

I'd like to add something here. Newer refs are bound to struggle with advantage/disadvantage and how to apply it to contact.
Normally, newer refs tend to whistle more contact than is necessary, and tend to call phantom fouls. Then, A/D comes into play and they sometimes err on the other side and allow a little too much contact. Judgment gets better over time.
If you happen to have a ref who is newer and perhaps letting too much contact go, and you think you need to address it, try something simple and respectful; perhaps during a timeout.
"Hey, these aren't college kids, and I think more contact could be called on both sides."

I'll reiterate the other comments, though. Don't try this before a game. It won't work.

I think only Dave30 (and possibly 1 other)"got my point".
1. I'm not looking to sway the refs.
2. I am an excellent coach, mentor, and role model.
(Thanks much to chap using the term "dumb").
3. I did not imply that I didn't care about the other kids.
4. Again, if a ref. allows the game to get physical and does not call (intentional) fouls....it is the ref. that sets the tone.
5. If the ref. calls all (intentional) fouls, the teams (if well coached) should learn to control themselves (unless the other team is a lousy on the line...joke).

Chaps, I've been disappointed at the mentality behind the responses here....I sense once the "stripes" go on there's a "holier than thou" attitude! (I've heard this from coaches in other leagues...)

OBTW, about my game.....I said nothing to the refs.....since it was a Final, they called the game exceptionally well. By calling most every intentional foul they saw, they kept the physicality and the potential for escalation down to a minimum.

So you got all worked up over nothing? ;)

<i>Au contraire</i>, coach. I think that a whole bunch of us got your point. Your point was that you wanted the officials to call fouls against the <b>other</b> team.

You might be an excellent coach and mentor, but that "role model" nonsense doesn't fly with officials that have got more than a year or two in. That might work with the newbies that don't know any better. Experienced officials have seen your kinda act before though- too many times- to buy into it.

Btw, we are "holier-than-thou" when it comes to coaches looking to get an edge for their team.

How many intentional fouls did they call? How many do you normally see during a game?

I don't remember that I've ever called more than one in a game, and I've certainly never done a game where more than 2 were called.

:rolleyes:

Alright, point by point.


I guess this depends on how you define "sway," but to me, if you are looking to get them to make more calls, that's pretty much the definition of trying to "sway" them.


if you say so.


The implication comes from the focus on your kids' comments and the affect on them. This is perhaps understandable given the fact that you aren't hearing the other team's kids comment. However, if you want to know how to address the refs, then some vocalized concern for the other team would be in order.


How many intentional fouls do you expect a game? It reads here as if you expect quite a few. Maybe you're defining it differently than I am. could you elaborate on this?


One intentional foul call should take care of it. Any more than that, and we're getting into poor coaching territory.


Yeah, you'll get that in these here parts any time you ask how to influence the officials in a game.

We only called one intentional foul for an elbow at the head of a player trying to set a screen. Other than that, we just tried to let the players play through contact if possible. This game was almost impossible to do that though as there was contact almost every trip down court. The moron in the stands went nuts when I gave the ball to white when it clearly went off white's leg. The idiot didn't realize that I did Red a favor since Red had actually fouled White and I chose to pass on the foul and just give White the ball back. Anyway, he went nuts forcing a gym administrator to sit next to him the rest of the game! Both coaches thought we handled it well and blamed the aggression on it being a "grudge" match. The teams apparently had tangled before and didn't enjoy each other's company!

Coach doesn't set the tone?

OK. You're back and I don't want anyone else to speak for me. First of all, I am a coach, so my perspective is a little different than many here. I said I thought it was an inappropriate question not because I thought you were trying to gain an unfair advantage. I'm going to take you at your word that your goal was a relatively clean game and not start parsing your words 1-by-1. I don't think it's appropriate to ask how to help anticipate that officials are not going to be calling a game well.

Some unfair assumptions have been made about your intentions and your qualifications, but built into your question was a scenario that did not allow the officials the benefit of the doubt for calling the upcoming game fairly and correctly. Trust me, you're getting off relatively easy.

I have seen what I thought was a relatively masterful attempt at a pregame conversation. When I was an assistant coach we had a great team with a 6'2" center who had a very old-fashioned game that drove opponents nuts. He had a great show-and-go move that would have made Pete Newell weep but he was being called for travel about 50% of the time. Before a playoff game, the head coach brought me and the center over to the officials and asked them to help settle a bet. He said his stupid assistant (me) thought this move was a travel but that I was just too young to remember the greats. Then he had the kid demonstrate the move and got the officials to concur that it was not travel. "You owe me $20," he said to me for effect. I thought it was genius but the first time the kid made the move in the game - tweet.

There just ain't a way to do it.

Did you get the $20 back?

That part was a bluff. He knew I didn't have any $20.

Well, at least the whistle took the pressure off...in case you ever came into some money...

This is boggling my mine....

I dont tell a doctor how to do surgery
I dont tell a lawyer how to try a case
I dont tell the garbage man how to load up my trash
THEREFORE, A coach should not tell me how to officiate a game.

I hope and prey there is no official in the world that would allow play to get so rough that injuries start occuring. If there are, they should be stripped of their license. But I am willing to guess those are 1 in a million.

Coach, officiating is VERY subjective. Yes, we have a rule book that lays out the guidelines of what must happen for a violation to occur, but after that it is up to interpretation and style. Some officials tend to allow rougher play and others may call every ticky tack foul that he or she sees. If officiating was objective, there would be no such thing as coaches getting T's for arguing. Like others said, that is a good way to get on an officials bad side. Its a bad business practice anywhere in the world to try to tell someone, even in a diplomatic manner, how to do their job better if you are not in the position of boss.

My suggestion is that you dont try to approach the officials about changing his or her styles. If you dont like the way they officiate, talk to the president of the local association, the assignor, your AD, or whoever is in charge of hiring and sending officials to your school and respectful and quietly ask that these particular officials are not sent back to officiate at your place. If you run into them on the road, just deal, man. Just deal.

[Edited by WooPigSooie on Mar 13th, 2006 at 11:10 PM]

Great story, beb.

The kid probably did it differently in the game. I've seen this kind of thing where a kid looks flawless in practice, and in warm-ups, but doesn't do it right during a game. It's possible the travel came before the actual move, so that it didn't flow the same as in the demo before the game. Even a very very good player can have a sudden brain fart and the "natural", automatic correct move disappears with the methane. Was there ever a time in that game where he did that move, and it wasn't called? Just curious.

I have only my recollections of it so I don't know exactly what was happening. I do know that this kid seemed like he stepped out of 1957. His dad was an older man who had taught him a solid hook shot with both hands and he was the most polite, clean-cut kid you could imagine, but he ended up with a full-ride football scholarship so I wouldn't like to tangle with him on the field.

His show and go kind of looked like a travel and opposing fans and coaches always reacted. If you broke it down there was no violation in it - I wish I could explain it better but it has been about 15 years since I've seen it. He seemed to get called about 1/2 the time or a little less for travel and I don't really know how to account for it but I don't think inconsistency was it - this kid was like an old black-and-white training video. My memories of that team are those of a rookie coach and parts are getting hazy. I do remember the fake bet pretty well, though . . . classic moment.

Try this, coach: Find a cop on the side of the interstate.
Stop and tell him what the speed limit is and that he should strictly enforce it to ensure the safety of you and the other drivers. Back that up with some accident statistics if you like. As for the problem at hand, I think you should not worry about something until it happens. Any advice to the officials beforehand on how to call a game, not only in all likelihood will not be appreciated, but has the potential to blow up in your face.
You may say in your most unoffensive tone, "Last time we played this bunch it was really physical in the paint and both team got all beat up. Thought you guys might like to know that. Thanks a lot." (big sincere smile) If you do happen to get an official that is easily swayed, or is inexperienced and thinks he is helping you, or whatever, you could find every player on the court with 3 fouls in the first quarter. I give the benefit of the doubt and assume your intentions were honorable in asking this question here, but I feel you are asking a question which has no answer. Do your job and let us do ours. Hope for the best, deal with what happens.

Might I suggest that you yell, scream and stomp to direct my attention to what you want called. Better yet, I will keep my eyes on you and if you point at me I will blow my whistle and call something.