When a throw-in is to take place on a sideline deep in the front court (near the endline) is it the trail (or new trail/old centre) who always handles the ball?

Does one try to avoid such a situation and inbounds on the endline?

Where should the lead be positioned for such a throw in?

It appears there will be too many officials in zone 4 or zone 6 corner if lead stays ball side like he is supposed to.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Edited by tschriver on Jun 25th, 2001 at 08:40 AM]

First off what is zone 4 or zone 6?

However, In basic 3 person mechanics, if ball is to be brought in bounds on a sideline it must be lead or trail who does it, In fact I cant think of a time when C would bring the ball in at all ( I'm sure someone here will though). If ball is below FT line extended it is Lead, above FT line extended it is trail. I dont think you need to avoid inbounds from sideline near baseline. NF changed mechanics even to accomodate this better the last couple of years. Personally having the person on the sideline three or four feet away, with me on the baseline is easier to officiate than the person standing right next to you!

In NCAA Men's and NFHS, the Trail would administer the throw-in. The Trail should get the thrower-in positioned properly, then back up to a normal or close to normal T position before bouncing the ball to the thrower-in. That way the T is not backing out while the ball is live. On sideline throw-ins, the L should be wide ... but will need a good angle on post-play with the ball coming in that low.

In NCAA Women's, the Lead would administer the throw-in on the sideline below the free throw line extended. T would assume his/her normal position and chop the clock.

I believe you're mistaken. The official NF mechanic is for the trail to administer all throw-ins on the sideline, no matter how deep in the corner it may be. As rpwall stated, that's the purpose of the bounce pass. Position the thrower, back out, and bounce the ball to him.

Kelvin, to answer your question, zone 4 and 6 are the two rectangles located in the deep right and deep left of a frontcourt. There are a total a six zones, all of which are equal in size, created by dividing the frontcourt as follows:

6 5 4

1 2 3

Huh?
 

tschriver,
Who <s>made that up</s> coined that?
mick

Re: Huh?
 

It's a FIBA thing...and let's not start that thread all over again!!!

Re: Re: Huh?
 

JeffRef,
Now, why didn't I know that? :)
mick

Re: Re: Huh?
 

Figures! ;^)

Actually, the NF does allow for the lead to bounce the ball up the sideline for a throw-in below the FT line extended. It is not, however, required. It is left to the discretion of the officials based on the game. Also, if the call was on the trail's line, the trail would administer the throw-in. The purpose of this rules is to keep the trail/lead essentially performing a switch on an OOB sitution deep on the lead's line.

You are correct! There are a few possibilities though. I know in AZ we are using the Women's mechanics and the Lead would be able to bounce the ball in, however...you may pregame it so the Trail comes down and bounces it. Also, if the trail does it, he/she can take the "Center" spot as long as in your pregame you let each other know and that way the "real" center doesn't slide up to trail. The same as if you are center and the Lead comes over...you aren't required to go to trail until you release the play. It is ok to have two centers (temporarily)...but not to have two trails!

Just my two cents...

Not in 3 man.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Camron Rust

Quote:

Actually, the NF does allow for the lead to bounce the ball up the sideline for a throw-in below the FT line extended. It is not, however, required. It is left to the discretion of the officials based on the game. Also, if the call was on the trail's line, the trail would administer the throw-in. The purpose of this rules is to keep the trail/lead essentially performing a switch on an OOB sitution deep on the lead's line.

That is in two man, not three. To person the Trail is the only official that bounces the ball to a player on the sideline. The lead only worries about his line and the post players.

Re: Not in 3 man.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust Quote: Actually, the NF does allow for the lead to bounce the ball up the sideline for a throw-in below the FT line extended. It is not, however, required. It is left to the discretion of the officials based on the game. Also, if the call was on the trail's line, the trail would administer the throw-in. The purpose of this rules is to keep the trail/lead essentially performing a switch on an OOB sitution deep on the lead's line. That is in two man, not three. To person the Trail is the only official that bounces the ball to a player on the sideline. The lead only worries about his line and the post players.

Rut, you can bounce it if you are the Lead and they are right there on the corner...if you pregame it!

Re: Re: Not in 3 man.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dhodges007

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge Quote: Originally posted by Camron Rust Quote: Actually, the NF does allow for the lead to bounce the ball up the sideline for a throw-in below the FT line extended. It is not, however, required. It is left to the discretion of the officials based on the game. Also, if the call was on the trail's line, the trail would administer the throw-in. The purpose of this rules is to keep the trail/lead essentially performing a switch on an OOB sitution deep on the lead's line. That is in two man, not three. To person the Trail is the only official that bounces the ball to a player on the sideline. The lead only worries about his line and the post players. Rut, you can bounce it if you are the Lead and they are right there on the corner...if you pregame it!

Denny, as of when did this become a mechanic? This year?
Below is last year's change.


List of major changes to be reflected in the
1999-2000/2000-2001 Basketball Officials Manual
The following items reflect the major changes to be reflected in the 1999-2000/2000-2001 Basketball Officials Manual:

5. When the designated spot throw-in is to be taken on the sideline, below the free throw line extended (ball remaining in the frontcourt), the Lead official may remain on the endline and bounce the ball to the thrower (<b>two official crews only</b>). (220)

mick

now philosophy...

I like the idea of lead bouncing ball to someone (below FT Line).... My question my moving the player up the sideline does the person gain an advantage?

If someone has made a great/mediocre/marginal defensive play that forced the ball OOB and lets say it gets kicked out just a couple of feet from the baseline then by moving it up the sideline so that trail can get anywhere to administer now opens up the floor . The player can go left and right where as closer to the baseline the player is more handcuffed by the baseline. This may create an advantage, some what slight but there are coaches who would raise a serious rucous moving the ball up the floor for an inbounds pass.

Re: Re: Re: Not in 3 man.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by dhodges007 Quote: Originally posted by JRutledge Quote: Originally posted by Camron Rust Quote: Actually, the NF does allow for the lead to bounce the ball up the sideline for a throw-in below the FT line extended. It is not, however, required. It is left to the discretion of the officials based on the game. Also, if the call was on the trail's line, the trail would administer the throw-in. The purpose of this rules is to keep the trail/lead essentially performing a switch on an OOB sitution deep on the lead's line. That is in two man, not three. To person the Trail is the only official that bounces the ball to a player on the sideline. The lead only worries about his line and the post players. Rut, you can bounce it if you are the Lead and they are right there on the corner...if you pregame it! Denny, as of when did this become a mechanic? This year? Below is last year's change. List of major changes to be reflected in the 1999-2000/2000-2001 Basketball Officials Manual The following items reflect the major changes to be reflected in the 1999-2000/2000-2001 Basketball Officials Manual: 5. When the designated spot throw-in is to be taken on the sideline, below the free throw line extended (ball remaining in the frontcourt), the Lead official may remain on the endline and bounce the ball to the thrower (<b>two official crews only</b>). (220) mick

Mick, is that Women's mechanics?

Not in 3 man Cameron, only in 2 man.

I don't think anyone is advocating moving the player back toward the FT line extended. The trail simply points out the spot to the thrower and then backs out before bouncing the ball.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Not in 3 man.
 

No, that is directly from the NF Officials Manual. It's for both men and women.

The problem with "if you pregame it!" is that it is not the NF mechanic. What other exceptions are you going to make to the official mechanics? You're better off following the manual, that way there's no deviation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Not in 3 man.
 

IIRC, when the change first came out, one source said "only two-person" and another did not make that restriction. Some states adopted the mechanic for both two- and three-person, some just for two-person. And, some crews / officials deviate from the established mechanics.

Continuing to argue this is like discussing whehter there's a shot clock in HS ball (in some states it's yes, and in some it's no)

Not in 3 man.
 

Bob, that may be true. However, the official mechanic from the NF is that it's not allowed. That's what's printed in the manual. If your state says to do it, then do it. Some crews do deviate from the official mechanics. That doesn't make it correct.

Besides, it's too hot to do anything else. Just as well pick a topic and beat it to death! :)

CCA Womens' Mechanic 2000-2001
 

Denny,

For CCA Women (<u>last season</u>): "The L official will administer all throw-ins on the endline or on the sideline inside the free throw line extended of the offensive team's front court."

The other, as Tony mentioned, was for last year's NFHS use, unless as Bob mentioned, the states changed stuff.

It's second day in the 90's U.P. here. I'm melting, I'm melting....
mick

Re: Re: Not in 3 man.
 

Rut, you can bounce it if you are the Lead and they are right there on the corner...if you pregame it! [/B][/QUOTE]

You can say anything in your pregame, but if you do that in the area that I live and you are being evaluated by HS and college assignors, you will not move past Junior High games.

There is no mechanic that allows for the lead to ever put the ball in other than the baseline or endline. In any college or even the NBA that I am aware of.

Now you have the right in your area to do whatever you feel, but if you do that in my area, you will never be taught that mechanic.

Peace

college women as noted above and nba do teach the lead to inbound ball,

That is what I thought...thanks :)

Re: Not in 3 man.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust Quote: Actually, the NF does allow for the lead to bounce the ball up the sideline for a throw-in below the FT line extended. It is not, however, required. It is left to the discretion of the officials based on the game. Also, if the call was on the trail's line, the trail would administer the throw-in. The purpose of this rules is to keep the trail/lead essentially performing a switch on an OOB sitution deep on the lead's line. That is in two man, not three. To person the Trail is the only official that bounces the ball to a player on the sideline. The lead only worries about his line and the post players.

True. Working in a state that uses two-man exclusively, I don't pay as much attention to the 3-man differences. Thus, I didn't think to make the distinction.

3 person mechanics
 

I have been using 3 person mechanics in high school for 7+ years. I believe that when the new NFHS mechanics book is published that the above procedure will be changed so that lead will handle the throw-in. Here is the problem with trail or C handling the throw-in. If trail is handling a throw-in 1 to 4 feet from the baseline, trying to make a good bounce pass to OOB player, backing up, avoiding the feet of the players on the bench, being nearly straight lined with OOB player. Lead has moved away from the OOB player to a few feet from the FT line extended. Under these conditions no one is in a good position to see if the defense hits the ball back to OOB player and it hits OOB player or not. Or if defensive players are pressuring the throw in, then alot can happen in that corner. If trail backs out and turns his attention to the off ball, paint, screens, etc. and lead handles the ball, you have much better coverage. I have run this same play many times, experimenting with L or T handling. There is no doubt in my mind that L should handle the ball. Remember 3 person is relatively new to the high school level for most states. Which is apparent when NFHS adopted the "flex". The flex is ok when you get use to it, but trying to bring in a rookie from 2 person to 3 person and they usually worry about the roatation & forget to officiate the game. Of course Arkansas is the only state that has a shortage of BB officials. Ha! Ha! Looking forward to Oct. 12, first game.

Re: 3 person mechanics
 

Jerry, the revisions to this year's Officials' Manual are published on the web page pasted below. The change that you've suggested is not listed.

http://www.nfhs.org/sports/basketbal..._revisions.htm

2 Person, 2 person, 2 person.
 

For the last time, the Lead in a 3 person game in NFHS, never puts the ball in on the sideline. The change was only for 2 person, not 3 person.

The Lead has not sideline responibility anyway, so why would the Lead be putting the ball in at that position.

First I agree with you about NFHS manual after reading posts and checking it out...
But to answer your question about why would you want lead to throw in the ball when it is not their sideline.

1) Lokk at the scenario if Ball went OOB 2 ft from baseline. Why not have lead throw it in and only make the two foot bounce pass instead of trail making a 26+ ft bounce pass down the side line in the front court? Or having the player move up and give them better position on the floor?

2) NBA, WNBA, NCAA Women cant all be wrong. They obviously think that fron on-ball/off ball coverage and plane violatons that it is easier to call from the lead than an AT&T call from the trail.

Kelvin,
I agree with you and you have made the same point I was tyring to make. Rut must never have this play. In this case the book does not handle it correctly. My crew will continue to let Lead handel the inbound bounce pass to OOB player. Enough said.

Kelvin,
From there, we can make a 15' bounce pass to the thrower, just like FT administration and we are releasing the ball from around the top of the key.
We're still okay from there, I think.
And, the other games are quicker.
Either way, we are so good, it'll work.
mick

Who cares about those leagues.
 

That is if you have a desire to be in the NBA, WNBA or NCAA Women. If you are me, I give a damn what those leagues do. I have no desire to do any of that.

In Rome.........
 

You must not understand that if I have the Lead bounce the ball to a sideline in 3 person, I will not get marked well in the games I do. It is not the proper mechanic in college men and NF ball that I do. Sorry, I like the ball that I am doing, I am not going to do something that is flat out wrong. So if they change it, I will do it, but who cares about those levels at the HS level.

Peace

Re: Who cares about those leagues.
 

Rut--

i think the point with the original post was that the NFHS SHOULD change. if the nba officials (the ONLY full time basketball officials w/ a few exceptions) are using this mechanic, then it's probably got some merit.

at least that was my reading.

Jake

Re: Re: Who cares about those leagues.
 

Well I am a person that believes that what ever Women's Basketball and the NBA does, should stay there. NF is totally different and so is NCAA Men's. Just because NBA and the WNBA does something, means little to me.

And again, if the Lead does not have that line of responsibility, why in the hell should that person be looking at a line that they do not have. The reason you have 3 officials in the first place, is to view the post more and to watch more off-ball coverage. Who is going to watch the post while you basically have two officials watching the sideline? At least in my experience, Men and young boys are very physical with each other at all levels, I do not want to watch the sideline as the Lead, when I have players screening, pushing, banging at the post. Sorry, but I just do not feel it would be practical. You would have to change more than the sideline coverage.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But I would ask you this question why is lead doing the inbound play on the sideline below FT line that much different than if the ball went OOB on the baseline? I dont think it is.
In your question about post play...
Lead generally has primary responsibility with the ball below FT line right? This play isnt any different.
As I said weve beat this horse we'll just have to agree to disagree

In 3 person, the Lead does not have responibility for anything outside of the 3 point line in NF or NCAA Men's. So it is very different, because you have a official looking at a place that they would have no responibility in the first place. That is why the Lead does not bring the ball in below FT line extended in 3 person. They do not have any responsibility at any other time. The Lead never has any sideline responsibilty or 3 point shot responsibility at any time according to NF or NCAA Men's. And if they do the only time it is allowed or provisions are made for that responsibility is transition. Other than that, the Lead should never be looking there. They primarily have the post and that is it. Now in 2 person, the Lead would have the the line of responsibility on their side of the court that they are on in NF.

I think the problem is you are getting NCAA Women's and WNBA completely confused with NF and NCAA Men's. Because the basic coverage areas are different in a half-court set.

Now a question?
 

Other than that, the Lead should never be looking there. They primarily have the post and that is it.

Are you telling me that Lead then only watches off ball in the post? Shouldn't Lead have ball inside arc below FT line then, with some dual coverage near FT line?

The reason the lead goes strong side is to referee the ball or get ready to referee the ball. Or did I miss something?

Re: Now a question?
 

Kelvin,
What Rut quite accurately said was that the sideline is <u>never</u> Lead's responsibility (dual or primary) in the front court.
mick

Re: Now a question?
 

HS three-person: Lead's primary is from the center of the free throw line, diagonally toward the corner, but stopping at the three-point arc.

A dual area (with T) is "above" the primary, to the free-throw line extended, inside the arc.

NCAA Women (and my understanding is that some states have adopted this for HS): L's primary is free-throw line extended to the sideline, on L's side of the court (IOW a rectangle, similar to the two-person coverage for lead.) The sideline itself, though, belongs to T -- if the ball goes out on the sideline, it's (technically) T's call. If L is on ball (including on the thorow-in where L bounces the ball to the inbounder), T looks inside to the paint to cover the post action there.