I've been thinking about starting this thread and esteemed member tomegun pushed me to do it when he said doing so-and-so would lead to yelling in the locker room. He later backed off, but that's not the point...or maybe it is.

Has anybody yelled at a fellow official on the floor or in the locker room? Or been yelled at? Or witnessed officials yelling at each other? I don't mean working-a-gym-so-loud-you-can't-hardly-hear-yourself-think-yelling-just-to-be-heard. I mean angry, in your face, why did you do this or you will do that because I said so yelling.

Me, I've never yelled at a fellow official and I can only remember 1 time where I yelled at a player in anger (gotta admit I've feigned anger a few times with players or coaches ;) ). I've been yelled at once on the floor by a fellow official, he stopped immediately when I told him to & later apologized, again on the floor, walking quite a ways to do so in full view of all.

So...you a screamer?

In my experience, from a coach's perspective, officials have always been very consistent about presenting a united front (at least on the court). I can recall only two times when I caught a whiff of tension and one involved an official contradicting a less-experienced official and explaining the rule in front of the crowd and everyone.

There was no yelling and the experienced official thought he was being a good teacher but the tension was a bit thick.

I've never yelled at another official, either on the court or in the locker room. I've never had another official yell at me on the court or in the locker room either.

It's just not ..... professional.

I know when my partner screws up usually, and they also usually know when I screw up too. We then discuss, not yell. It should hopefully be a learning opportunity.

I have been in rules, mechanics and philosophy discussions at other times that mighta got a little bit noisy. Those were usually over a few brownpops, and there was certainly no rancor involved either that I remember. To be quite honest, I learned more in some of those sessions than I did in any clinic that I ever attended.

I have also been in evaluation meetings that did get a little tense at times. Those meetings were always away from a game enviroment though.

And....I've also feigned anger at coaches and players at times too. It's just another game management device imo, and it's a good one sometimes. I can't think of an instance where I really lost it in a game though. I had it pounded into my head when I was first starting out that an official <b>never</b> lost his temper during a game.

No, I've never yelled at anyone while reffing. We're supposed to be eye of the storm. When everyone else in the gym is emotional, we stay calm. It would be unprofessional to yell. I've been frustrated with a partner or two but if I've addressed it, it's been calmly in the locker room.

Z

OK, I admit it. When I was young and immature, my first season reffing (8th grade), my partner was calling ridiculous crap against a black school, but nothing against the white school. The ball went OOB, and he paused for three seconds before awarding it to the white school. I kid you not, all the coach said was, "If you weren't sure, shouldn't you have called a jump ball?" He yells, "Technical!" The coach replies, "For WHAT?" "Technical number two! You're gone!" Later the coach came out into the gym and sat in the back of the bleachers. The ref stopped play, and YELLED at the coach, "You have to leave the gym!" After the game, I let him have it. Told him he was the most racist person I'd ever met. I'm not proud of that night at all.

About seven years ago, I was working a mens rec league tournament. Pretty competitive, lots of former college players. My partner is calling all kinds of ticky-tack crap, some of it clearly in my area, and all of those passed-on for a reason, by me.

The last straw came on a routine play up the court. I'm trail, point guard is coming up the floor, defender is with him closely, but no other pressure. Some light contact both ways, you know the kind. About one foot over the centre line, a slight bump by the defender, but no real advantage, dribbler is un-fazed. I hear a whistle. I look, and my partner is standing 50 feet away, fist in the air. Both players are confused and look at me. I do nothing.

But later, in the change room, I challenged him on it. We argued a bit, and I just picked up my stuff and left. I later apologized, but not because I was truly sorry. I felt I had every right to be angry.

Nothing even close to that since then.

None of your damn business :D


[Edited by canuckrefguy on Mar 11th, 2006 at 01:36 AM]

I was witness to two screamers (both of my partners) during halftime of one of my juco games. It surprised the hell outta me, because one guy was one the nicest veterans I've ever met, and the other was a quiet, young guy.

It started in the first half, when the young guy was doing things like mirroring 3-point attempts as T or C when it was outside his area, and then made a questionable call in the vet's area. A little later on during a TO, I noticed the vet was talking to the young guy; had his arm around his shoulder and the coversation looked friendly enough. Later, right before the half, the young guy comes out and calls a travel way out in front of the vet at T. I could see the look on the vet's face, but nothing was done or said on the floor. However, once we got down to the locker room, the vet just lit into the young guy, asking WTF he was doing making that call, when we just talked about staying in our areas, and the young guy starts yelling back about how he had to make that call because it was obvious, etc. I just sat there with many thoughts going through my head: the vet's right - the young guy was making questionable calls outside his area, the young guy's right - the vet shouldn't be yelling at him questioning his calls, I'm glad I'm not in the middle of this, how the heck are we going to work the second half as a team, wonder where I'm going to stop for dinner after this game, and so on. It was one of the most uncomfortable halftime experiences I ever had. I finally mumbled something like, "Aw, come on guys, we've got a second half to get through...", We made it through the rest of the game, and post-game ok.

But on the way home, I realized no matter how much you might want to yell at your partner, there's probably a better way to handle it. I guess using people skills extends to your partners as well as coaches and players.

Well, there ya go.

I gotta say, I would bend over backwards to preserve the integrity of the crew. You yell at me? I'm gonna hug you & say thanks.

Of course when the game's over I'm gonna make a few calls. But let's get through this game first.

tomegun, care to jump in?

Not if you look like Uncle Fester.

grrrr....I wonder if you got your name on that damn map thing...let's go look...

this is going OT but don't you do that? In fiba the mechanics says to mirror 3 point signals.

[Edited by crazy voyager on Mar 12th, 2006 at 12:58 PM]

We are supposed to mirror the <B>made</B> three-pointers, not the attempts. If two officials signal the attempt, then that means there's two sets of eyes on the shooter, and someone's not watching their primary.

This is not entirely true. If you look at the mechanics books in both NF and CCA (I can only speak for Men’s), the middle of the floor (the width of the lane) is considered dual area as it relates to a three point try. Both officials can easily see or might recognize shot in the middle of the floor. There are even situations that this can happen in a 2 Person game around the FT line extended area.

Peace

Had some good experiences with Mick. Quarters for calling the wrong line. And the look you can get when you make him run up the court when your suppose to do the bump and run, priceless!!! (oops)

I could never see myself yelling at another official anywhere within the confines a basketball venue. Of course I've gotten in heated debates with my close officiating friends during our personal social gatherings. But to yell at another official is not my place. If another official's behavior/conduct/officiating skills are that bad then my place would be to report it to the appropriate supervisor and let them handle it.

In my first couple of seasons of officiating I ocassionally responded to coaches yelling at me by yelling in return. I have since learned to properly handle those situations without also losing my cool. I have raised my voice to players, but never yelled, to get a point across, usually in situations where I see chippiness starting to set in.

I definitely wouldn't tolerate another official yelling at me. Who knows how I would respond to that. Hopefully not in a manner that would lead to a lawsuit :D

[Edited by BadNewsRef on Mar 13th, 2006 at 01:17 PM]

Yes, but one official should then drop and turn and watch the rebounders while the other official retains the signal and stays with shooter.

Normally the trail will stay with it and the center will drop (essential pregame topic).

Z

Why should you drop it once it's up? I agree it's not necessary, but like chicken soup, it couldn't hoyt!

I've always been taught as long as you're signalling the attempt, you have the shooter in your primary. If the other official drops their signal, that tells the crew they are looking off-ball for rebounding, etc. If I see you keep the signal for the attempt, I'm not sure if I need to look off-ball or not, which could lead to two officials either watching the shooter, or worse, two officials not watching the shooter.

So, for me it's just that non-verbal communication between partners that lets each other know responsibilities and areas of coverage. As Z said, necessary in pre-game to keep from getting burned by any chicken soup that might be too hot. ;)

I vote with Z & M&M.

So who watches the actual shot attempt and signals the made 3 in a 3 whistle crew?

I know in 2 whistle, trail signals the made basket. If lead has indicated its a 3 point attempt then trail should always mirror the attempt and then signal the made if its good.

The official (T -OR- C) in whose primary the shot was taken indicates the attempt. (In NCAAW, if the shot is taken from the L's area, the L AND T indicate the attempt)

Both the T and the C signal if the basket is made. (In NCAAW, the L does not give an indication).

Of course, this can change if the basket is attempted during transition.

Gasp! Horrors! Isn't there mass confusion about whose primary the shot is in? What if we have 2 officials watching the shooter? Or worse, 2 officials NOT watching the shooter!?!?! Cats and dogs -- living together!! Mass hysteria!!!

:rolleyes:

Whoever's area the shooter is in, that's who will signal the attempt. I believe that is the same in both 2-whistle and 3. Once the shot is made, in 3-whistle the T and C both signal the made basket, in 2-whistle the T gives the signal.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement about the T giving the signal on the attempt in 2-whistle. I've always been taught whoever has on-ball coverage will be the one to signal the attempt. This tells me there are two sets of eyes on the ball, and no one watching off-ball. There are times where this might happen, such as when a dribbler comes out of one area, stops in the "gray area" and shoots, and both officials happen to be watching the shot. But in most cases, I think only one official should be giving the attempt.

In a 2-whistle game, the Trail always signals a made 3-pointer. If the shot originated from the Lead's primary, then the Lead will also indicate the made 3-pointer.

What's the worse that can happen - a hole torn in the universe? Exactly!

Maybe I've been doing it wrong, but I've never signaled the attempt at T if the L has the shot. If the L has the shot in the corner, I've got paint and low-block coverage. I do signal the made basket at T, and so does the C.

You may be misunderstanding me. I agree the person who's area of responsibility signals the attempt. If its the lead signalling the attempt the trail mirrors the attempt and then has the shot to signal the made. Lead should never watch the shot in 2 whistle. That is how I was taught and teach new officials.

I disagree. I would not drop out or have never been told to do so in this situation. Once again, the middle of the court is dual area. Depending on where the ball came from both officials can easily see the attempt. This is why areas are called a primary and a secondary.

Peace

So, are we agreeing or arguing?

I agree with everything you said except for the trail mirroring the attempt. Now, maybe I haven't done as much 2-whistle lately, but I always thought whoever has on-ball responsibility is the only one who gives the attempt.

What are you disagreeing with? That 1 official should stay with the shooter & the other official go with the shot for BI/GT and rebounding?

Or you just saying it's not a problem to have 6 fingers in the air?

If that's the case how do you know who has the shooter?

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I think there is a definite T area, and a definite C area. There might be those rare instances where a player might end up "on the line", so to speak, between those areas, and you might end up with two sets of eyes on the ball. Some people might call that a dual coverage area. But I don't think it's as large as "the middle of the court".

It still comes down to primary areas. The official whose primary the shot comes from should signal the attempt. This tells your partner(s) that you have the shooter, and they can now watch for the made basket, rebounding action, etc. I don't think it's much different than a double whistle on a foul - if it's in my partner's primary, I drop it and let them take it. If I signal a 3-point attempt that's in my partner's primary, I'll drop the attempt and watch off-ball. If it's made, I'll mirror the made basket.

I do not recall that Z was talking about who should have BI/GT call. I think the point he made was one of the officials should drop his/her hand on a 3 point attempt because the shoot took place in the middle of the floor. I think that is not required or does not make since. If I am the C and the ball handler started totally in my area and shot the ball in the middle, I am not leaving the shooter just to watch rebounding or GT/BI calls. If I am the T in that situation, I might still go up with the shoot attempt but realize that the C saw the entire play.

I think we have gotten too worried about primary areas too much and we forget who is watching the play. I might be the T and not know the player just came into my area because of what I was watching off-ball. To say the C should drop their arm is not very realistic if you ask me.

Peace

Ahem...getting us back on topic before some "esteemed members" start complaining...I had a situation just a few weeks ago - conference playoff game, I notice visiting coach in my partner's ear while we are shooting free throws. 2nd shot made, and V coach call a time-out...partner reports it to table, and then turns and walks directly to me and says "Coach ____ wants me to tell you to lose your ego tonight." I looked at him for a few seconds, ask "Are you serious? That's what that conversation was about - me having an ego?" He said "Yes" so I turned and walked away...in the locker room after the game, we had a little discussion about crew integrity and not letting a coach blast your partner, but he didn't get it. I was quite proud of myself for NOT yelling or losing my temper...the evaluator/observer who was there, however, lit the guy up when he heard what had happened.!! :)

The point *I'm* making is if both officials have their arm in the air how do you know which one takes the shooter & which 1 takes the shot.

One method is simple. The guy who reached into his secondary puts his arm down & takes the shot. When he puts his arm down he's communicated to the other official what his intent is.

3rd quarter, Girls district play-off, I'm the C and I call a travel in T's primary :o (I had no business blowing my whistle). Luckily 'T' is a friend of mine and I joke it off at the end of the quarter by saying I was making up for the double-dribble he called in the 1st half in my primary(actually a great call on his part, he was lead looking back on press-break and I was straight-lined).

Guess if I had been working with tomegun there would have been one of those "WTF" yelling matches in the locker room. Just f'ing with you tome. :)

Where did the ball originate from? I know if I am the C, I am not leaving the ball just because the ball is in my partner's area. I am sticking with the ball until I am sure my partner picked up the ball. I really do not see this as a big deal or hard to do. I just pointed out that both officials can signal a 3 point shot based on the written mechanics and usual practices that I have worked under. If you cannot handle doing that, do what works for you. The mechanics books do not say that the middle of the lane at the top of the key is it is just one official or the other. It says both C and T can both rule on a 3 point shot. I was not trying to debate all the possibilities that can happen. I just wanted those to know what the books actually say.

Peace

That's because you both have your hand up signalling the 3 pt try.

Anyway, let's just disagree & leave it at that.

I did this long time ago. ;)

Peace

Never been yelled at...thank goodness. But I've been talked to very sternly several times at camps in the past. And it never even occurred to me that it might be in the vicinity of "OK" for me to yell at someone else. As many have already said in different ways, I can't think of a more unprofessional way to handle things. First take care of the business at hand...the game. Then iron out your personal differences on your own time. Definitely a different mind set from anything I've come in contact with...

I had a game where the home team was making a run under 3:00 left to tie the game.....during a fast-break I was L and A1 dropped a sweet pass to A4 who caught it and dunked it w/out dribbling - cut it to 1pt game, crowd went nuts. Unfortunately C waved it off for traveling - I literally said to myself - "you're f-ing kidding me!". I thought it was terrible; trying not to sell out my partner, I told Coach A that he had :30 to say whatever he wanted to me without penalty (during the timeout that immediately followed). He vented - I said "you're still in the game - don't let that one call bother you - let's play".

After the game, T asked C what he saw. C said he thought it was a travel - T claimed he was straightlined, I said nothing (it was bad enough that I thought the supervisor might get a call after the game...). As T and I got into the car after the game - we BOTH agreed it was a horrible call and we were shocked that he called it.

I guess the moral of the story is that you have to handle judgement calls and mechanics/rules breakdowns differently. If a dual-area call is made that is bad judgement, you can ask about what the calling official saw - but you can't jump him for it - it's his judgement (however bad it is). If it's a mechanics/rules issue, then I think you can be more forceful about addressing it. I don't think yelling does anything to solve or stop the situation from occuring again - you've got to find a way to either survive the remainder of the game or agree how you're going to handle the situation the next time it occurs (if in fact you work with that same person again).

Wow, I don't think that is how I would handle the situation but to each man his own.

I would have told him that I didn't see a travel and that next time it should probably be a "I'm 100% sure it was a travel" and not a "thought it was". BUT, it all depends on if he is a senior D1 official or a brand new JV official on how the situation is handled.

All at the same time, I don't have much to say about this and I have a lot to say about this.

I often get the feeling that we think we can do no wrong. The things that are my pet peeves are:

1. The non-calling official having a close, personal, lengthy conversation with a coach after another official gives them a T. I don't have to be close to a coach to say, "You must remain seated..." and in college they can just simmer for a while. IMO, it is not my job to explain what my fellow official called. Many times, it is obvious and going to the coach is just to lend an ear. A coach doesn't get my ear when he gets a T; I will listen to him all game during other situations.
2. Lead calling across the paint on normal, ordinary, garden-variety drives from the C's side which often result in a double whistle. IMO, the L might as well broadcast, "I'm watching the ball."
3. Calls that are reaching and aren't made to save the crew. I was in a playoff game this season (two man) and my partner called traveling from the trail on a play that was literally about a foot from the endline and outside the paint on my side of the basket. In other words, two normal steps and I could have smacked both players upside the head!
4. Officials who have "bad" game awareness. I know you are probably saying, "What the heck is that?" Team A is coming back from being behind by 20 and an official changes the way the game has been called up to this point by making a call or a no-call. IMO, that official has just been swept into the emotion of the game and that "bad" game awareness is bad for the game.

By the way, I did yell at my fellow official about one of these "peeves" this year, but it was my buddy. He yelled back at me, like we often do, and we worked the second half. One thing I take pride in is that I don't think other officials do a :rolleyes: when they are working with me. I always want to put the crew first, for the good of the game, and I don't ever big-time anyone.

I think we could all do the game a favor and be honest with each other. We have to be accepting though. I thought everything was OK with my season until I saw the tape of my last high school game in high definition. I didn't necessarily like all of my movement. I have to "go into the lab" and re-invent the wheel. I will never be satisfied until I reach perfection. So, I will never be satisfied until I quit. :D

Yelling at someone is far from the worst thing I've done in a basketball game. It happened years ago, but I will share if anyone is interested. It isn't something I'm proud of, but it happened and I moved on a long time ago.

Who was playing? I saw a high school game on INHD the other day and was wondering if this is possibly what you are talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun 1. The non-calling official having a close, personal, lengthy conversation with a coach after another official gives them a T. I don't have to be close to a coach to say, "You must remain seated..." and in college they can just simmer for a while. IMO, it is not my job to explain what my fellow official called. Many times, it is obvious and going to the coach is just to lend an ear. A coach doesn't get my ear when he gets a T; I will listen to him all game during other situations.

I have a problem with the assumption that your partner is explaining your T if he is communicating with the coach at this point. You have no idea what's being said. As stated many times in this forum, a 'T' is just another foul, so it shouldn't change the basic interaction with the coach. S/He has received his/her penalty, so it should be business as usual from that point.

I personally don't care what my partner(s) says to a coach. That's something I've never concerned myself with. Even if my partner is selling me out lock, stock, and barrel, it has no affect at all in how I continue to call the game nor will it affect how I interact with the coaches.

To piggy back on your "seeing yourself on tape" statement. There is definitely nothing like seeing yourself on a TV screen to reduce the swelling of one's head. I was fortunate to officiate a scrimmage at a D1 college before the season started and they provided the officials with DVD's of the game. I then had an early season HS game broadcast on the local ED channel. So I was able to do my fine-tuning early in the season.

Share with me what you did. I gotta know.

Oak Hill versus Montrose